Snipers vs. Saluting in Combat: History

P

Pakundo

New Member
I am researching the history behind how snipers affected the ruling against saluting in a combat zone. Does anyone happen to know in which war this rule was made? :?:
 
I did some searching online and found 2 instances during WWII where soldiers were told not to salute officers. One instance in Normandy, the other in the Pacific.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2031
http://www.newszap.com/articles/2004/07/02/fl/lake_okeechobee/gla03.txt

It has to be sometime after the Civil War since officers were extremely easy to spot before then. WWI was massed infantry assaults. There were a lit of snipers in the trenches. Any WWI account I have read says snipers tended to hit anything that was brave enough to take a look "over the top." It would make sense that WWII be the time that saluting in a combat zone be banned. There is a Bill Maldoon cartoon that shows 2 soldiers looking at a billboard with general orders. One order was for the men to stop saluting officers. The 2 soldiers looking at the billboard said "we must be going back to the front."

Anyone have anything different???

SGT Doody
 
I would guess the idea probably came out around the time of the development of the rifle. Before that smoothbore muskets wouldn't have had the range.
 
Charge_7 said:
I would guess the idea probably came out around the time of the development of the rifle. Before that smoothbore muskets wouldn't have had the range.
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I've studied the Civil War pretty deeply and have not read anything on the matter. I know good artillerymen would try to pop shots at the groups of officers watching a battle unfold. There were sniper rifles at the time. A few generals met their fate with that gun. But none of the officer accounts I have ever read say anything about being afraid of snipers or saluting during a battle.

The Spanish American War did not see too much in the name of accurate shooting. The Philippine War saw a high amount of fire, but that fire was mostly inaccurate. The battles on Cuba were not against highly trained troops. That is why Roosevelt survived his 400 yd charge over open ground. The enemy troops did not adjust their gun sites and fired over the heads of the Rough Riders.

WWI had instances of snipers. Since most of the men were in trenches, the snipers more or less hit anything that looked over the top of the trenches. In the movie the Lost Battalion, a movie about an american Battalion who got cut off behind the German lines, there was an instance where the Battalion Commander told a new LT not to salute "up here [at the front]."
 
I can name at least one instance prior to all that that an officer was shot by a sniper. British General Braddock was shot by a French or indian sniper (believe French took credit but was most likely an indian) at the start of the French and Indian War. Lt. Colonel George Washington was at the scene btw. Braddock was most likely spotted by his braid rather than a salute however.
 
I was watching a show on the Revolutionary War and the program was talking about a time where a British sharpshooter took aim at an American officer but didn't fire. The sharpshooter later found out that he was aiming at George Washington. Also, at Bunker Hill the Americans took aim at British Officers. At that time, officers will easily identified by their uniforms.
 
the movie Forest Gump has a scene where Forest salutes an officer and the officer responds with (not a direct quote), don't salute me here. there are snipers out there that would love to take out an officer.
 
This thread brings back memories from bootcamp, we had our first field exercise and I saluted a Lieutenant and after some yelling, running and pushups I learned my lesson...
 
We had a Boot Butterbar that insisted on being saluted during his first Field X. Gained the Moniker "Lt. Sniper Check" :P
 
On the western front during WW1 many things changed on the front, Officers started to carry rifles as the snipers knew that officers normally carried a pistol. By walking up and saluting a person it will indicate to the sniper that this is an officer and a far better target than a soldier. During this time the British troops would only light two cigarettes with one one match as they found by the time they had lit the third the sniper had zeroed in on them. These days British officers no longer wear their rank on their shoulder during combat or while out training, all ranks hang a patch from the zipper on this patch of camouflaged cloth are the ranks in black, so that you need to be quite close to see what rank they carry. this applies all officers and NCO's
 
on the George Washington subject, i have read that the sniper did not shoot because his back was to the honorable sniper, who would never shoot a man in the back.

also, i read somewhere else that Marines do not salute unless "covered" by a uniform cap, is this correct? maybe thats something that came out of those orders to not salute
 
ok, whats is to see a sniper looking at thier helmet?
from what iv seen (movies only sofar) the higher ranks have some symbols painted on thier helmet? whats to stop a sniper checking for specific markings?
 
There are probably two things at work here.

One, movies like to make rank obvious so the audience can tell all those clean shaven, short haired guys apart. "The Great Raid" had all the officers sporting bright shiny lapel rank, probably for this very purpose.

Second, a general or some other high ranker isn't going to be on the front line. If he has a bright white star on his helmet, it is because he is back in the rear and wants the people around him to recognize him.

Modern US forces all have bright "garrison" patches and rank as well as subdued rank.

BTW, this is a great site!!
 
Much of the modern day sniping came about during WW1, the Germans started it of with their telescopic sights and they used to men out in no Mans Land to get a better view along the trenches. Then they got bolder and started carrying out very thick boiler plates into no mans land to give the sniper better protection. The Brits in turn called a number of big game hunters from Africa who brought along their elephant guns and shot the Germans straight through the boiler plates. They then went on to set up some fantastic hides and even the gillie suite was born in WW1. If you ever get a chance to read of some pf the things they did during this war you will find very little has changed except some of the equipment in forms of the sights.
 
on the discovery channel, WWI or II, a Officer was getting mad about how his soldiers were cowering down, he stands up and says, "Come on, they cant hit us from here." he was shot instantly in the throat. keep your head down!
 
Doody said:
I was watching a show on the Revolutionary War and the program was talking about a time where a British sharpshooter took aim at an American officer but didn't fire. The sharpshooter later found out that he was aiming at George Washington. Also, at Bunker Hill the Americans took aim at British Officers. At that time, officers will easily identified by their uniforms.
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I saw that, too.
 
FULLMETALJACKET said:
on the discovery channel, WWI or II, a Officer was getting mad about how his soldiers were cowering down, he stands up and says, "Come on, they cant hit us from here." he was shot instantly in the throat. keep your head down!
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General Sedgewick (union army), American civil war. The exact quote was "what are you cowering down there for? They couldn't hit an elephant at this range." Just before he was hit below the left cheek. He was conducting a seige somewhere, can't remember where or what year of the war, but his death (and absence of commander for his troops til a new commander got there 6 weeks later) caused a delay in the union attacks and subsequent failure to capture the fort (more time to strengthen defences etc). One of the best examples of a single well aimed shot changing the course of a battle.

I might have got some of the details wrong (it's 5 years since I read the story), but that's the general gist of it.
 
Have you heard people say it is unlucky to light three cigarettes of one match or light. this came about during WW1, when you light a match there is quite a flare up and by the time you got around to lighting the third cigarette the sniper had homed in on the spot and the third man would have collected a bullet.
 
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