Mikefrombelgium
Active member
thanks for that anwser unitedsomalia. so looks like their are starting to rebuild things, but still have a long way to go. lets hope without wars and bloodshed.
Rare Somali air force pix!!! More to come
UnitedSomalia
Banned
Yea they are starting to rebuild, hopefully if many of the former generals and commanders come back from abroad or and those generals that are working with the insurgency rejoin the new military we will have more success.
UnitedSomalia
Banned
I flew to these forums/fundraisers for the last 5 days and got back yesterday, they were organized by Somali agencies, diaspora, and leaders to help raise funds for the new UN backed Transitional Federal government's attempt to rebuild the Somali police force and army. The funds raised was remarkable, the amount garnered by these Somali agencies and diaspora so far is above 2 billion dollars and still going.
The UN has already pledged 250 million dollars in an international donors conference in Brussels to help fund the new Somali government, the EU on its own also pledge at least 60 million Euros towards the government. The Arab league and the African Union pledged 80 million for the next 12 months towards Somali police and army equipment and another 24 million the next 12 months for training.
With this amount of money flowing into the government and with persistence and care we can build a capable police force and army. The target goal for the Somali government in the next 12 months is to fully retrain and re-equip a 6,000 man army and 10,000 man police force with coastal marines.
The equipment the government is slated to purchase abroad in the next 12 months does not include any heavy armor, artillery, or any fixed wing aircraft. It is primarily coastal patrol boats, armored vehicles and carriers, bullet proof vests, all purpose helicopters, night vision equipment etc.
The Somali defense minister stated in one of the meetings I went to that the primary goal of the Somali army, police and coastal marines is to combat the warlords and piracy and stabilize Somalia. He said in order to achieve this the Somali government has already launched 2 offensives to dislodge the insurgents (Al Shabab and their allies). He said that the army and police force are outgunned and outnumbered; therefore, with the purchase of these assets we can level the playing field and carry out a nation wide crack down on these criminals.
He said the Somali police and army need these all purpose helicopters, armored vehicles/APC, bullet proof vests, and night vision for the street-to-street fighting the police and army will have to do in order to expel the militias from the cities such as Mogadishu.
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
The UN has already pledged 250 million dollars in an international donors conference in Brussels to help fund the new Somali government, the EU on its own also pledge at least 60 million Euros towards the government. The Arab league and the African Union pledged 80 million for the next 12 months towards Somali police and army equipment and another 24 million the next 12 months for training.
With this amount of money flowing into the government and with persistence and care we can build a capable police force and army. The target goal for the Somali government in the next 12 months is to fully retrain and re-equip a 6,000 man army and 10,000 man police force with coastal marines.
The equipment the government is slated to purchase abroad in the next 12 months does not include any heavy armor, artillery, or any fixed wing aircraft. It is primarily coastal patrol boats, armored vehicles and carriers, bullet proof vests, all purpose helicopters, night vision equipment etc.
The Somali defense minister stated in one of the meetings I went to that the primary goal of the Somali army, police and coastal marines is to combat the warlords and piracy and stabilize Somalia. He said in order to achieve this the Somali government has already launched 2 offensives to dislodge the insurgents (Al Shabab and their allies). He said that the army and police force are outgunned and outnumbered; therefore, with the purchase of these assets we can level the playing field and carry out a nation wide crack down on these criminals.
He said the Somali police and army need these all purpose helicopters, armored vehicles/APC, bullet proof vests, and night vision for the street-to-street fighting the police and army will have to do in order to expel the militias from the cities such as Mogadishu.
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
UnitedSomalia
Banned
For the Somali Army, Police and Coastal Marines I would suggest these equipment would best serve and should be bought in the arms procurement slated for the next 12 month.
Suggestions for patrol craft:
Super Dvora FPB Coast patrol craft
Armidale class patrol boat
Patrol craft MRTP33
Suggestions for attack/transport helicopter:
Mi-24 superhind
Suggestion for heavy lift helicopter:
Mi-26
CH-47 Chinook
Suggestions for armored vehicles/APC:
Upgraded and armored Humvee
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
Suggestions for patrol craft:
Super Dvora FPB Coast patrol craft
Armidale class patrol boat
Patrol craft MRTP33
Suggestions for attack/transport helicopter:
Mi-24 superhind
Suggestion for heavy lift helicopter:
Mi-26
CH-47 Chinook
Suggestions for armored vehicles/APC:
Upgraded and armored Humvee
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
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UnitedSomalia
Banned
Lenco
BTR-3E1
Pandur APC
Spartan APC
Grizzly APC
Gurkha
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
BTR-3E1
Pandur APC
Spartan APC
Grizzly APC
Gurkha
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Well you'd probably want to keep your stuff affordable so a lot of that stuff you mentioned above would be out of reach.
For a patrol boat the Shanghai III would fit the bill well.
It's got a top speed of 28 knots and is a dedicated gunboat with little ASW capability. All the space used for ASW and mining equipment has been used for additional firepower.
It's got four 37mm cannons and four 14.5mm machine guns. Also has some ASW mortars. All weapons that pirates can learn to fear if used.
The diagram is that of a Shanghai II. I can't seem to find a single photo of a Shanghai III but I'm guessing they look similar.
Mi-24 as the main attack helicopter.
Mi-8s or Mi-17s as standard logistical helicopters.
Any collection of surplus APCs for ground troops.
Somalia isn't going to suddenly have a modern Army. And even if it was given one, it'd squander it anyway. Better to keep things cheap.
For a patrol boat the Shanghai III would fit the bill well.
It's got a top speed of 28 knots and is a dedicated gunboat with little ASW capability. All the space used for ASW and mining equipment has been used for additional firepower.
It's got four 37mm cannons and four 14.5mm machine guns. Also has some ASW mortars. All weapons that pirates can learn to fear if used.
The diagram is that of a Shanghai II. I can't seem to find a single photo of a Shanghai III but I'm guessing they look similar.
Mi-24 as the main attack helicopter.
Mi-8s or Mi-17s as standard logistical helicopters.
Any collection of surplus APCs for ground troops.
Somalia isn't going to suddenly have a modern Army. And even if it was given one, it'd squander it anyway. Better to keep things cheap.
UnitedSomalia
Banned
The total budget for the army, police and coastal marines is suppose 2 exceed over 3 billion dollars in the next 12 months, their is tremendous amount of funds coming in so any of those things wouldn't be out of reach. The Somalis themselves raised over 2 billion and going strong so far, not including the money being given by the UN, EU, Arab league, and African Union. And that money is suppose 2 be spent on rebuilding the armed forces.
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yes they would be out of reach if you consider that you have to not only buy the hardware but also:
- Maintain them.
- Train crews to use them properly.
- Fuel them.
Not only that but let's consider a lot of other expenses that will have to be covered by the 3 billion.
- Paying the soldiers and sailors a wage that would not tempt them into jeapordizing their jobs by helping pirates.
- Food & Water (costs a lot more than you'd think considering the size of the force you'll need).
- Ammunition (constantly have to buy ammo for practice).
- Training (yeah calling in experts to help train the Somali military in conducting their missions will cost money).
- Lots and lots of trucks.
- Uniforms.
- Communications gear (VERY important and also very expensive). Basically rebuilding of a C3I network to coordinate the military. This alone will run you into the millions of dollars.
- Satellite intelligence (No, Somalia will not launch its own satellite, rather buy images off of civilian companies that are engaged in high resolution remote sensing and/or recieve timely donations from cooperating governments. high res images from private companies will cost a lot of money).
- New facilities (new barracks, new bases, new beds, gyms, TVs etc.)
- Military medical services.
Basically what I'm saying is that there is a LOT of ground that 3 billion will have to cover and when the funds will dry up is anyone's guess. Sounds like to me that it's more of a one time payment that won't go on for very long.
Spend wisely.
A military without sufficient transportation and communications is not an Army. It's an uncoordinated list of small units.
Without proper pay, without proper benefits, soldiers/sailors will be more inclined to go bad or corrupt.
I'd rather be sporting 3rd class weapons with good command, control, computers and intelligence backing me up as well as good logistics to make sure my supplies arrived (hopefully on time) and re-enforcements would actually join a fight that I got engaged in.
Start adding body armor and night vision goggles and the price will go soaring.
Worst part is that these are tempting things to put on the black market.
- Maintain them.
- Train crews to use them properly.
- Fuel them.
Not only that but let's consider a lot of other expenses that will have to be covered by the 3 billion.
- Paying the soldiers and sailors a wage that would not tempt them into jeapordizing their jobs by helping pirates.
- Food & Water (costs a lot more than you'd think considering the size of the force you'll need).
- Ammunition (constantly have to buy ammo for practice).
- Training (yeah calling in experts to help train the Somali military in conducting their missions will cost money).
- Lots and lots of trucks.
- Uniforms.
- Communications gear (VERY important and also very expensive). Basically rebuilding of a C3I network to coordinate the military. This alone will run you into the millions of dollars.
- Satellite intelligence (No, Somalia will not launch its own satellite, rather buy images off of civilian companies that are engaged in high resolution remote sensing and/or recieve timely donations from cooperating governments. high res images from private companies will cost a lot of money).
- New facilities (new barracks, new bases, new beds, gyms, TVs etc.)
- Military medical services.
Basically what I'm saying is that there is a LOT of ground that 3 billion will have to cover and when the funds will dry up is anyone's guess. Sounds like to me that it's more of a one time payment that won't go on for very long.
Spend wisely.
A military without sufficient transportation and communications is not an Army. It's an uncoordinated list of small units.
Without proper pay, without proper benefits, soldiers/sailors will be more inclined to go bad or corrupt.
I'd rather be sporting 3rd class weapons with good command, control, computers and intelligence backing me up as well as good logistics to make sure my supplies arrived (hopefully on time) and re-enforcements would actually join a fight that I got engaged in.
Start adding body armor and night vision goggles and the price will go soaring.
Worst part is that these are tempting things to put on the black market.
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oRTouCH
Active member
What I know about Somalian AirForce is this information that I learned from Wikipedia:
The Somali Air Corps (SAC) was originally established with Italian aid in the early 1960s, emerging from the Italian "Corpo di Sicurezza della Somalia" while the country was under Italian and British administration, between 1950 and 1960. The most important pieces of its original equipment were eight North American F51-D Mustangs, Douglas C47's and MiG 23s, which remained in service until 1968. The SAC operated most of its aircraft from bases near Mogadishu and Hargesia and Gaalkacyo. Its mission was to support armed forces during wartime. In the spring of 1977, the Somali military, under the direction of Mohammed Said Barre, invaded the Ogaden (also called West-Somalia) to reclaim the Somali-populated territory.
The SAC sometimes used Somali Airlines aircraft to ferry troops and supplies to war zones. It also had other modern fighter jets such as the MiG-15, MiG-21, MiG-17, and the ll-28. In addition, the SAC possibly employed the Mi-8, one of the world's most-produced helicopters used by over 50 countries. The Mi-8 is armed with rockets and anti-tank guided missiles, as well as a carrying capacity of twenty-four soldiers.
The Somali Air Force also obtained a number of ex-Omani Air Force Hawker Hunters during the early 1980s. These aircraft where originally operated by civilian ground engineers and pilots from Zimbabwe and the United Kingdom. The aircraft were initially operated out of Mogadishu and then moved to Baidoa.
The Somali Air Force has not been operational since the collapse of the Somali government in 1991.
The Somali Air Corps (SAC) was originally established with Italian aid in the early 1960s, emerging from the Italian "Corpo di Sicurezza della Somalia" while the country was under Italian and British administration, between 1950 and 1960. The most important pieces of its original equipment were eight North American F51-D Mustangs, Douglas C47's and MiG 23s, which remained in service until 1968. The SAC operated most of its aircraft from bases near Mogadishu and Hargesia and Gaalkacyo. Its mission was to support armed forces during wartime. In the spring of 1977, the Somali military, under the direction of Mohammed Said Barre, invaded the Ogaden (also called West-Somalia) to reclaim the Somali-populated territory.
The SAC sometimes used Somali Airlines aircraft to ferry troops and supplies to war zones. It also had other modern fighter jets such as the MiG-15, MiG-21, MiG-17, and the ll-28. In addition, the SAC possibly employed the Mi-8, one of the world's most-produced helicopters used by over 50 countries. The Mi-8 is armed with rockets and anti-tank guided missiles, as well as a carrying capacity of twenty-four soldiers.
The Somali Air Force also obtained a number of ex-Omani Air Force Hawker Hunters during the early 1980s. These aircraft where originally operated by civilian ground engineers and pilots from Zimbabwe and the United Kingdom. The aircraft were initially operated out of Mogadishu and then moved to Baidoa.
The Somali Air Force has not been operational since the collapse of the Somali government in 1991.
UnitedSomalia
Banned
I completely understand what you are saying about all the other aspects that go along with purchasing such equipment, but what I was saying was was not that we have to buy all those high end equipment within the next 12 months but that with the government's plan to have a sustainable military in the next 7 years they set up a 7 year plan so I was saying that we should purchase these equipments gradually not all at once, I should have been more clear what I was saying. Also the budget is not a one time thing it is actually what the government plans to spend yearly in the next 7 years.
That 3 billion was collected by the Somalis, UN, EU, Arab league and African Union but the lion's share some 80% of it the Somalis themselves. The Somali government also has a yearly earning and budget of 5 billion that the government brought in just July 2008-April 2009 alone but all that 5 billion is going straight into civil reconstruction and not the armed forces. All in all that 3 billion and some change yearly budget for the armed forces according to government figures is sustainable in the next 7 years.
Also the reason why I say the Somalis should go for high end but yet practical weaponry is because I think if a country is going to spend money on their armed forces might as well not buy 3rd rate 1970s equipment. And all the equipment I listed seems very practicle and not to expensive to me.
I do agree with you about the body armor and night vision equipment the Somalis are buying thats why I think Somalia must create an inventory and check system so none of those body armor and night equipment ends up in the wrong hands. But as far as the larger equipment such as the APC, helos and gun boats I doubt they can end up in the wrong hands before the government notices because those are major weapons that would be easily noticed if they weren't available.
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
You'd be surprised.
You'd be very surprised.
I have a hard time believing where these billions of dollars are coming from in a sustainable rate. Most Somalis don't rate a dollar a day. I understand the whole thing about overseas donations but those things never last and they'll dry up pretty soon as they always do. Using those funds for military equipment would be extremely controversial and can actually be illegal depending on how they are either used or who they are distributed to.
But from what you just wrote, I'm pretty certain that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
You'd be very surprised.
I have a hard time believing where these billions of dollars are coming from in a sustainable rate. Most Somalis don't rate a dollar a day. I understand the whole thing about overseas donations but those things never last and they'll dry up pretty soon as they always do. Using those funds for military equipment would be extremely controversial and can actually be illegal depending on how they are either used or who they are distributed to.
But from what you just wrote, I'm pretty certain that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
UnitedSomalia
Banned
Its funny how I who has attended these forums/fundraisers, I who know Somali government delegates and have constant contact with them, I who works with the Somali delegation to the UN, I who has worked with some of these Somali agencies attached to the reconstruction, I who actually have more grasp of the situation but yet you say I have no clue
. I am laughing very hard right nowThese oversea donations-fundraisers have been what was running majority of the UN backed Somali government budget for years now. The Somali diaspora are tired of this warfare and want a central government with armed forces established that's why they contribute so much and Somali companies/agencies contribute. The UN overseas these forums and fundraisers. The UN, EU, Arab league and African league are also committed to the establishment of Somali armed forces that is why they are so forth coming and it is not a one time deal. I know about these and have day-to-day inside information, I even asked several questions to the defense minister at one of the last forums. The Somali foreign minister was just at Washington D.C. for a meeting with the state department and the secretary of state Hilary Clinton to work out the details of America's contribution to rebuilding the Somali armed forces.
Everyone Somalis and foreign nations alike want to see Somalia rebuild their armed forces so the warlords and pirates are tackled, they are willing to invest to rebuild such forces until Somali gets on its feet.
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I'm laughing at you because you think that equipment is going to stay in government hands.
And about those parties of yours. I've been to a few. It is a nest of professional liars.
I won't even explain to you why using that money for weapons can be a big problem.
And about those parties of yours. I've been to a few. It is a nest of professional liars.
I won't even explain to you why using that money for weapons can be a big problem.
UnitedSomalia
Banned
Listen the government is fighting for its survival against the insurgency being carried out by the warlords and pirates why would they then turn around and hand over those weapons to their enemies? Also I have said Somalia needs to have a system of inventory, check system, and accountability established before the weapons purchases. They are planing a 6,000 man army and 10,000 man police and coastal marines, these forces under agreement and negotiation with the UN and African Union will be trained by Italy, America, Egypt. Once this 6,000 man army and 10,000 police force is professionally trained and their is a inventory accountability and check system in place how would their be a chance of them falling into the wrong hands? The chances are very low and next to nothing.
Also I don't know what kind of forums/fundraisers you have been to but the ones I am talking about are overseen by the UN and the UN's special Somali-Horn of Africa envoy. They are no way a problem as you try to paint them, they have legitimacy and are attended by UN delegations, Somali government delegates, African Union envoy, the EU envoy, the Arab league envoy, Somali agencies and representatives of the Somali diaspora and even Italy, Britain and United States send delegations. They even set up special working groups that report progress directly to the UN, EU, Arab league, African Union, the United States, Italy and Britain.
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy)
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
UnitedSomalia, out of all the groups I've seen, the UN ranks as one of the worst folks I've seen. East Timor... won't forget it. What a f*cking joke the UN was. All they are good at is using big words and wearing smart suits to tickle your nuts into thinking that
a) they actually care
b) they're going to do something
The only group of folks who will definitely and reliably send any money are the Somalis abroad, but even then I'm sure it's not as simple as you try to paint it and even they don't have an unlimited amount of funds. It's not unprecedented. South Korea has an even bigger population outside its own borders and during the 1997 economic crisis, a lot of folks gave their money and gold to the government to help recover. It was a great sacrifice on the part of the public but those donations don't last because the folks just can't afford to pay those generous funds year in and year out.
An inventory system is alright, but things will get sold or stolen regardless. That is unless you pay your troops enough money that they will see that it's simply not worth selling these things off.
Don't think vehicles can go missing? I've known of entire bridges that have disappeared overnight. Inventory or no inventory, things will leak out and if there's a sufficient market for it, it can prove to be some sort of black hole where equipment are chalked as "lost in action" but are simply sold to willing buyers.
And so the price of maintaining this Army and police force goes up. Big time.
Cops too. You know that entire districts can fall into the hands of militia and the cops walking that beat can serve as nothing more than scouts for them?
Getting the hardware is the least of the concerns and that 3 billion is going to prove to be a tight budget to get something started from nothing.
a) they actually care
b) they're going to do something
The only group of folks who will definitely and reliably send any money are the Somalis abroad, but even then I'm sure it's not as simple as you try to paint it and even they don't have an unlimited amount of funds. It's not unprecedented. South Korea has an even bigger population outside its own borders and during the 1997 economic crisis, a lot of folks gave their money and gold to the government to help recover. It was a great sacrifice on the part of the public but those donations don't last because the folks just can't afford to pay those generous funds year in and year out.
An inventory system is alright, but things will get sold or stolen regardless. That is unless you pay your troops enough money that they will see that it's simply not worth selling these things off.
Don't think vehicles can go missing? I've known of entire bridges that have disappeared overnight. Inventory or no inventory, things will leak out and if there's a sufficient market for it, it can prove to be some sort of black hole where equipment are chalked as "lost in action" but are simply sold to willing buyers.
And so the price of maintaining this Army and police force goes up. Big time.
Cops too. You know that entire districts can fall into the hands of militia and the cops walking that beat can serve as nothing more than scouts for them?
Getting the hardware is the least of the concerns and that 3 billion is going to prove to be a tight budget to get something started from nothing.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yeah, well in East Timor they were a disaster.
They waited until everyone was dead, there was nothing left to blow up and all sides involved ran out of ammo before they walked in and pretended to have successfully stabilized the area.
Glad the Spaniards and the French stuck their necks out for you. If history is a clue, they probably did it without calling too many people.
They waited until everyone was dead, there was nothing left to blow up and all sides involved ran out of ammo before they walked in and pretended to have successfully stabilized the area.
Glad the Spaniards and the French stuck their necks out for you. If history is a clue, they probably did it without calling too many people.