mp44 vs bar
Genghis Khan
Active member
I would have to go with the Bar because it had way more firepower then the Mp44 and was more accurate. I really do hate the 20 round clip though on the Bar
mmarsh
Active member
The thing about the BAR was that it was big and very heavy. It was not your ideal weapon to carry around. For best results it had to be fired from a position where the bipod could be used.
Both were good guns, but if I were a soldier I think I would have be happier with the Stg.44
Both were good guns, but if I were a soldier I think I would have be happier with the Stg.44
Dean
Active member
You're comparing apples with oranges. The BAR was a bipod mounted light machinegun that could be used as a very heavy rifle, a squad automatic weapon, or a sniper rifle. It used a full powered 30.06 round, which is no longer used by any military force because it is just too powerful. The one weakness of the BAR was the fact that it could only be fed using 20 round magazines, which severely limited it's flexibility.
On the other hand we have the MP 44. This was an assault rifle, in fact, the first assault rifle, and it fired the 7.92 kurtz (short) round that was developed for it to reduce recoil and increase accuracy. The result is that it is much less powerful than the 30.06. The MP 44 could not be used as either a SAW nor a sniper rifle, as it had neither a bipod nor could it be belt fed, but the 30 round mag made it an infantry weapon to be reckoned with.
Basically, you are asking something similar to: Which is better, the M-16 or the FN-FAL HB? Or, which is better, the Enfield IW or the modernized Bren? The comparison does not really work.
Dean.
On the other hand we have the MP 44. This was an assault rifle, in fact, the first assault rifle, and it fired the 7.92 kurtz (short) round that was developed for it to reduce recoil and increase accuracy. The result is that it is much less powerful than the 30.06. The MP 44 could not be used as either a SAW nor a sniper rifle, as it had neither a bipod nor could it be belt fed, but the 30 round mag made it an infantry weapon to be reckoned with.
Basically, you are asking something similar to: Which is better, the M-16 or the FN-FAL HB? Or, which is better, the Enfield IW or the modernized Bren? The comparison does not really work.
Dean.
mmarsh
Active member
Dean
Thats an interesting post. I would disagree with one part. I dont think you can call the BAR a LMG, for the reason you stated its low ammo capacity. A LMG has to be capable of sustained fire and 20 rounds isnt enough. Also the US Army had a true LMG, the Browning .30. The other reason was the BAR had a reletively low ROF compared to say the Browning, Bren or Mg.42. I had never heard of a BAR being used as a sniper rifle, it had no telescopic sight. I tend to think the role of the BAR is of a infantry support weapon. To increase the firepower of a rifle squad in certain situations such as a Bazooka, flametrower, or LMG would.
Thats an interesting post. I would disagree with one part. I dont think you can call the BAR a LMG, for the reason you stated its low ammo capacity. A LMG has to be capable of sustained fire and 20 rounds isnt enough. Also the US Army had a true LMG, the Browning .30. The other reason was the BAR had a reletively low ROF compared to say the Browning, Bren or Mg.42. I had never heard of a BAR being used as a sniper rifle, it had no telescopic sight. I tend to think the role of the BAR is of a infantry support weapon. To increase the firepower of a rifle squad in certain situations such as a Bazooka, flametrower, or LMG would.
MightyMacbeth
I am Honor
the mp 44 had a more futuristic desing. It was in some ways better. But do never under estimate the power of the B.A.R
LeEnfield
Active member
Many soldiers of that day could fire accurately over very long distances with out a scope. We were trained to use our .303 rifles up to 800 yds, now i am not saying at that range every one was a bull but we could get most rounds on the target. The problem with the bigger magazine is the weight.
MightyMacbeth
I am Honor
yep..the BAR had a magazine that carried 20 rounds. Mp 44 had about 10 or so more..The shape , plus the substance of the Mag also play a role..
Dean
Active member
Yes MMarsh, you're right, it is not a true LMG. However, it did, IMO have more LMG capabilities than it did assault rifle characteristics. The length, weight, bipod and sustained fire attributes of the BAR did not resemble anything close to any rifle, and it would have been quite useless to have given every rifleman a BAR. It was issued as a squad weapon (another LMG attribute) and it fired a cartridge that was completely unsuited for an automatic shoulder controlled weapon. (Imagine trying to fire an FN-FAL in 30-06 calibre on full automatic... and keep it on target. You'll get the idea!)
It always seemed to me that the BAR was a stopgap measure that allowed the squad to have an automatic fire support weapon, and indeed, that was the role for which it was issued. At the time, the Browning was indeed considered a light machine gun, but it was only issued at the platoon level or to the support platoon of a company. It quickly became obvious that US army platoons needed more firepower, particularly in the jungles of the South Pacific. (Here though, I must insert a personal thought. It always surprised me that the BAR was widely issued and used in the Pacific where the engagement ranges were far shorter. OTOH, in Europe, the US Army was facing German army units armed with the excellent MG 34 and MG 42 machine guns. I always figured that the US should have copied that one.)
On your last point, I have heard many stories of US soldiers using the BAR as a sniper type weapon at ranges that moderately exceeded those of the M1. At the same time, British soldiers were using the BREN in much the same way, including using it as a sniper type weapon.
Dean.
It always seemed to me that the BAR was a stopgap measure that allowed the squad to have an automatic fire support weapon, and indeed, that was the role for which it was issued. At the time, the Browning was indeed considered a light machine gun, but it was only issued at the platoon level or to the support platoon of a company. It quickly became obvious that US army platoons needed more firepower, particularly in the jungles of the South Pacific. (Here though, I must insert a personal thought. It always surprised me that the BAR was widely issued and used in the Pacific where the engagement ranges were far shorter. OTOH, in Europe, the US Army was facing German army units armed with the excellent MG 34 and MG 42 machine guns. I always figured that the US should have copied that one.)
On your last point, I have heard many stories of US soldiers using the BAR as a sniper type weapon at ranges that moderately exceeded those of the M1. At the same time, British soldiers were using the BREN in much the same way, including using it as a sniper type weapon.
Dean.
Springfield
Active member
I think the B.A.R. is a little better than the MP-44. It's more accurate and more deadly. I would pick a B.A.R. over an MP-44 anyday.
CanadianCombat
Active member
Operation Air cooled, gas operated, magazine fed, shoulder type
M1918A1 selective fire (fully and semi-automatic)
M1918A2 fully automatic
Caliber .30 (30-06)
Muzzle velocity 853.4 mps (2800 fps)
Capacity 20-round detachable box magazine
(1) Bandoleer (BAR belt): 12 magazines
(2) Magazine changeable in 2-4 seconds
(but averaged 6-8 seconds in combat)
Weight 8.33 kg (18.5 lbs)
Overall length 119.4 cm (47 in.)
Rate of fire 550 rounds per minute
Effective range 550m (600 yds)
Ammunition (1) Ball M2; 150 gr bullet, 50 gr charge
(2) Tracer M25, M1: for designating targets and signalling
(3) Armor piercing M2 (black tip); 165gr/53gr
(4) Armor piercing incendiary: for lightly armored flammable targets
Sturmgewehr 44
Country Germany
Type Assault rifle
Inventor Gustloff
Date of design 1943
Service duration July 1944 - May 1945
Cartridge 7.92 x 33 mm
Action Gas-actuated
Rate of fire 500-600
Muzzle velocity 685 m/s (~2247 ft/s)
Effective range 300 m
Weight (Unloaded) 5.22 kg
Length 940 mm
Barrel 419 mm
Magazine capacity 30
Viewing sights Blade front
Tangent U-notch rear
Variants ??
Number built 425,977
The initial M1918A1 version of the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) was first used in combat by American soldiers during World War I, and many saw service in World War II. The BAR received high praise for its reliability under adverse conditions.
In 1940, the model M1918A2 was adopted. Unlike earlier models, it could only be fired in two automatic modes--slow (300 to 450 rpm) or fast (500 to 650 rpm)--but not in semiautomatic mode. Both versions were widely used in the second world war. The USMC preferred the semiautomatic mode in some tactical situations, and modified most of the M1918A2 guns to include that capability. A buffer spring in the butt greatly reduced recoil, to the advantage both of firing accuracy and shooter endurance.
The M1918A2 also mounted its folding bipod (2.38 pounds!) on a special flash hider near the end of the barrel. Since the bipod could easily be detached in this model, it very frequently was! but not often in defensive positions, where it was very effective. The flash hider, which was the point of attachment for the bipod, was not usually removed. Hiding the flash from enemy troops when firing on them isn't the purpose of the hider, all automatic weapons are easily visible when fired at night. It blocks the muzzle flash from the vision of the shooter, maintaining his night vision. That's important!
The Army infantry squad of nine men was tactically organized around a single BAR. The Marine squad of thirteen men was organized around three fire-teams, each organized around a BAR. The much greater fire power of a Marine platoon with its nine BARs over the Army platoon with its four BARs was a great combat advantage.
The BAR was a popular weapon in WWII and Korea, because it was very reliable and offered an excellent combination of rapid fire and penetrating power. The BAR's only serious drawbacks were its lack of a quick-change barrel (to reduce the chance of overheating), and its weight (BAR, with bipod and a loaded bandoleer, came to about 40 pounds).
In Korea, the much greater range and penetrating power of the BAR and the .30 caliber air cooled machine gun, firing rifle ammunition, usually more than offset the light weight and rapid fire capability of the variety of submachine guns the North Koreans and Chinese used, including their burp guns modeled on Soviet weapons such as the Shpagin PPSh41 , which fired pistol ammunition.
The Maschinenpistole 43, Maschinenpistole 44, Sturmgewehr 44 (MP43, MP44, Stg44) were names for a light automatic rifle developed for Nazi Germany during World War II as part of the Maschinenkarabiner (machine carbine) program and developed from the Mkb 42(H). The many names of the Mkb 42(H)'s successor results from the complicated events in the bureaucracy of the Third Reich. Download high resolution version (907x382, 52 KB) Greg Kihn Bands File links The following pages link to this file: Sturmgewehr 44 ... M16A2 (American) Assault rifles (translated from the German Sturmgewehr) have been defined various ways, but they are generally understood to be selective fire rifles or carbines (depending on the particular firearms size), using intermediate-powered ammunition. ... 1943 is a common year starting on Friday. ... 1945 was a common year starting on Monday (link will take you to calendar). ... Rimmed, centerfire . ... 7. ... In firearms terminology, an action is the system of operation that the firearm employs to seal the breech (in a breech-loading firearm), and to load consecutive rounds. ... The gas-operated system for implementing automatic reloading of a firearm is one of five such systems, the others being recoil-operated, Gatling, chain, and blowback. ... The Rate of fire is the speed at which a specific firearm can operate. ... A guns muzzle velocity is the speed at which the projectile leaves the muzzle of the gun. ... Nazi Germany, or the Third Reich, commonly refers to Germany in the years 1933–1945, when it was under the firm control of the totalitarian and fascist ideology of the Nazi Party, with the Führer Adolf Hitler as dictator. ... World War II was a truly global conflict with many facets: Immense human sacrifice, fierce indoctrinations, and the use of new, extremely devastating weapons - the atom bomb being the ultimate. ...
The MP43, MP44, and StG44 were names for a nearly identical weapon with only small production differences and dates. The last, the StG44, was called "Sturmgewehr" literally "Storm rifle", or more commonly translated as assault rifle. It combined the traits of submachine guns (SMG) and automatic rifles. The translation "assault rifle" became very popular to describe this class of weapon, but it was far from being the first of this type. M16A2 (American) Assault rifles (translated from the German Sturmgewehr) have been defined various ways, but they are generally understood to be selective fire rifles or carbines (depending on the particular firearms size), using intermediate-powered ammunition. ... MP5KA4 9 x 19 mm with 3-round burst trigger group A submachine gun is a firearm that combines the automatic fire of a machine gun with the ammunition of a pistol, and is usually between the two in weight and size. ... An automatic rifle is any rifle capable of fully-automatic fire; a type of automatic firearm. ...
It chambered a shorter version of the standard 7.92 mm rifle round, which, in combination with the weapon's design allowed it to be used like a SMG in close quarters but with greater accuracy and range then a SMG for farther targets. However, it had much less range and power than regular rifles of the day; fortunately, at that time, much of the fighting was taking place at closer ranges such as in towns, cities, and wooded areas. It had much less range and power than battle rifles, the standard of the day, but most shooting took place at the relatively short ranges it was useful at, anyway. A battle rifle or main battle rifle is a military longarm firing a full sized rifle cartridge. ...
It was a popular weapon—much of the army was armed with either submachine guns or bolt-action rifles—but only a limited number of soldiers were issued the semi-automatic rifles. There was also a distinct lack of a dedicated light machine gun (LMG). The MG34 and MG42 had versions that were meant to serve in this role but they were on the heavy side for a LMG. The Stg44 was not a light machine gun, but it did fill the need for a light automatic rifle that offered mobile suppresive fire, like the Bren, while at the same time offering much of the convenience of a SMG or light automatic rifle such as the US M1 Carbine. MG34 The Maschinengewehr 34, or MG34, was a German machine gun that was first produced and accepted for service in 1934, and first issued to units in 1935. ... Maschinengewehr 42 Type Machine gun Nationality Germany Era WW2 History Date of design 1942 Production period 1942 - 1945 Service duration 1942 - 1945 Operators Nazi Germany War service WW2 Specifications Type Calibre 7. ... The Bren Gun was Britains primary light machine gun in WWII and served on after the end of World War 2 until phased out in favour of smaller calibre weapons. ... Wikiquote has a collection of quotations by or about: United States Wikinews has a related story: United States United States government CIA World Factbook Entry for United States House. ... M1 Carbine Type service rifle Nationality US Era WW2 Platform Individual Target Personnel History Date of design Production period 1943 Service duration 1943 - 1960s Operators US, Israel War service WW2, Korea Specifications Type semi-automatic rifle Calibre 0. ...
The FG42 was also a light automatic rifle, but it was developed for paratroopers to serve as a semi-automatic rifle and light support weapon. However, it saw very a limited production of just a few thousand units. The production problems resulted because it was not economical to manufacture and from the internal politics in the Nazi government. The Fallschirmjagergewehr 42, shown with magazine and detachable bayonet. ...
The MP43/44 was a intermediate weapon for the period; the muzzle velocity from its 42 cm barrel was 647 m/s, compared to 732 m/s (K98k), 744 m/s (Bren), 585 m/s (M2 Carbine, and 365 m/s (MP40).
The Mp-44 was a better gun allround.
M1918A1 selective fire (fully and semi-automatic)
M1918A2 fully automatic
Caliber .30 (30-06)
Muzzle velocity 853.4 mps (2800 fps)
Capacity 20-round detachable box magazine
(1) Bandoleer (BAR belt): 12 magazines
(2) Magazine changeable in 2-4 seconds
(but averaged 6-8 seconds in combat)
Weight 8.33 kg (18.5 lbs)
Overall length 119.4 cm (47 in.)
Rate of fire 550 rounds per minute
Effective range 550m (600 yds)
Ammunition (1) Ball M2; 150 gr bullet, 50 gr charge
(2) Tracer M25, M1: for designating targets and signalling
(3) Armor piercing M2 (black tip); 165gr/53gr
(4) Armor piercing incendiary: for lightly armored flammable targets
Sturmgewehr 44
Country Germany
Type Assault rifle
Inventor Gustloff
Date of design 1943
Service duration July 1944 - May 1945
Cartridge 7.92 x 33 mm
Action Gas-actuated
Rate of fire 500-600
Muzzle velocity 685 m/s (~2247 ft/s)
Effective range 300 m
Weight (Unloaded) 5.22 kg
Length 940 mm
Barrel 419 mm
Magazine capacity 30
Viewing sights Blade front
Tangent U-notch rear
Variants ??
Number built 425,977
The initial M1918A1 version of the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) was first used in combat by American soldiers during World War I, and many saw service in World War II. The BAR received high praise for its reliability under adverse conditions.
In 1940, the model M1918A2 was adopted. Unlike earlier models, it could only be fired in two automatic modes--slow (300 to 450 rpm) or fast (500 to 650 rpm)--but not in semiautomatic mode. Both versions were widely used in the second world war. The USMC preferred the semiautomatic mode in some tactical situations, and modified most of the M1918A2 guns to include that capability. A buffer spring in the butt greatly reduced recoil, to the advantage both of firing accuracy and shooter endurance.
The M1918A2 also mounted its folding bipod (2.38 pounds!) on a special flash hider near the end of the barrel. Since the bipod could easily be detached in this model, it very frequently was! but not often in defensive positions, where it was very effective. The flash hider, which was the point of attachment for the bipod, was not usually removed. Hiding the flash from enemy troops when firing on them isn't the purpose of the hider, all automatic weapons are easily visible when fired at night. It blocks the muzzle flash from the vision of the shooter, maintaining his night vision. That's important!
The Army infantry squad of nine men was tactically organized around a single BAR. The Marine squad of thirteen men was organized around three fire-teams, each organized around a BAR. The much greater fire power of a Marine platoon with its nine BARs over the Army platoon with its four BARs was a great combat advantage.
The BAR was a popular weapon in WWII and Korea, because it was very reliable and offered an excellent combination of rapid fire and penetrating power. The BAR's only serious drawbacks were its lack of a quick-change barrel (to reduce the chance of overheating), and its weight (BAR, with bipod and a loaded bandoleer, came to about 40 pounds).
In Korea, the much greater range and penetrating power of the BAR and the .30 caliber air cooled machine gun, firing rifle ammunition, usually more than offset the light weight and rapid fire capability of the variety of submachine guns the North Koreans and Chinese used, including their burp guns modeled on Soviet weapons such as the Shpagin PPSh41 , which fired pistol ammunition.
The Maschinenpistole 43, Maschinenpistole 44, Sturmgewehr 44 (MP43, MP44, Stg44) were names for a light automatic rifle developed for Nazi Germany during World War II as part of the Maschinenkarabiner (machine carbine) program and developed from the Mkb 42(H). The many names of the Mkb 42(H)'s successor results from the complicated events in the bureaucracy of the Third Reich. Download high resolution version (907x382, 52 KB) Greg Kihn Bands File links The following pages link to this file: Sturmgewehr 44 ... M16A2 (American) Assault rifles (translated from the German Sturmgewehr) have been defined various ways, but they are generally understood to be selective fire rifles or carbines (depending on the particular firearms size), using intermediate-powered ammunition. ... 1943 is a common year starting on Friday. ... 1945 was a common year starting on Monday (link will take you to calendar). ... Rimmed, centerfire . ... 7. ... In firearms terminology, an action is the system of operation that the firearm employs to seal the breech (in a breech-loading firearm), and to load consecutive rounds. ... The gas-operated system for implementing automatic reloading of a firearm is one of five such systems, the others being recoil-operated, Gatling, chain, and blowback. ... The Rate of fire is the speed at which a specific firearm can operate. ... A guns muzzle velocity is the speed at which the projectile leaves the muzzle of the gun. ... Nazi Germany, or the Third Reich, commonly refers to Germany in the years 1933–1945, when it was under the firm control of the totalitarian and fascist ideology of the Nazi Party, with the Führer Adolf Hitler as dictator. ... World War II was a truly global conflict with many facets: Immense human sacrifice, fierce indoctrinations, and the use of new, extremely devastating weapons - the atom bomb being the ultimate. ...
The MP43, MP44, and StG44 were names for a nearly identical weapon with only small production differences and dates. The last, the StG44, was called "Sturmgewehr" literally "Storm rifle", or more commonly translated as assault rifle. It combined the traits of submachine guns (SMG) and automatic rifles. The translation "assault rifle" became very popular to describe this class of weapon, but it was far from being the first of this type. M16A2 (American) Assault rifles (translated from the German Sturmgewehr) have been defined various ways, but they are generally understood to be selective fire rifles or carbines (depending on the particular firearms size), using intermediate-powered ammunition. ... MP5KA4 9 x 19 mm with 3-round burst trigger group A submachine gun is a firearm that combines the automatic fire of a machine gun with the ammunition of a pistol, and is usually between the two in weight and size. ... An automatic rifle is any rifle capable of fully-automatic fire; a type of automatic firearm. ...
It chambered a shorter version of the standard 7.92 mm rifle round, which, in combination with the weapon's design allowed it to be used like a SMG in close quarters but with greater accuracy and range then a SMG for farther targets. However, it had much less range and power than regular rifles of the day; fortunately, at that time, much of the fighting was taking place at closer ranges such as in towns, cities, and wooded areas. It had much less range and power than battle rifles, the standard of the day, but most shooting took place at the relatively short ranges it was useful at, anyway. A battle rifle or main battle rifle is a military longarm firing a full sized rifle cartridge. ...
It was a popular weapon—much of the army was armed with either submachine guns or bolt-action rifles—but only a limited number of soldiers were issued the semi-automatic rifles. There was also a distinct lack of a dedicated light machine gun (LMG). The MG34 and MG42 had versions that were meant to serve in this role but they were on the heavy side for a LMG. The Stg44 was not a light machine gun, but it did fill the need for a light automatic rifle that offered mobile suppresive fire, like the Bren, while at the same time offering much of the convenience of a SMG or light automatic rifle such as the US M1 Carbine. MG34 The Maschinengewehr 34, or MG34, was a German machine gun that was first produced and accepted for service in 1934, and first issued to units in 1935. ... Maschinengewehr 42 Type Machine gun Nationality Germany Era WW2 History Date of design 1942 Production period 1942 - 1945 Service duration 1942 - 1945 Operators Nazi Germany War service WW2 Specifications Type Calibre 7. ... The Bren Gun was Britains primary light machine gun in WWII and served on after the end of World War 2 until phased out in favour of smaller calibre weapons. ... Wikiquote has a collection of quotations by or about: United States Wikinews has a related story: United States United States government CIA World Factbook Entry for United States House. ... M1 Carbine Type service rifle Nationality US Era WW2 Platform Individual Target Personnel History Date of design Production period 1943 Service duration 1943 - 1960s Operators US, Israel War service WW2, Korea Specifications Type semi-automatic rifle Calibre 0. ...
The FG42 was also a light automatic rifle, but it was developed for paratroopers to serve as a semi-automatic rifle and light support weapon. However, it saw very a limited production of just a few thousand units. The production problems resulted because it was not economical to manufacture and from the internal politics in the Nazi government. The Fallschirmjagergewehr 42, shown with magazine and detachable bayonet. ...
The MP43/44 was a intermediate weapon for the period; the muzzle velocity from its 42 cm barrel was 647 m/s, compared to 732 m/s (K98k), 744 m/s (Bren), 585 m/s (M2 Carbine, and 365 m/s (MP40).
The Mp-44 was a better gun allround.
I read a lot about power, but the Stg.44 wasn't suppose to have too much punching power. Since the German army was an infantry army, the load had to be carried by themselves. After a lot of study, it showed that the average distance of most firefights wasn't more then 400 meter (1200 feet). So they designed a smaller cartridge (so you could carry more) with still enough power.
My impression of the BAR is to bring use a howitzer for shooting clay pigeons; effective but overkill. And if you have to carry everything yourselve.... well, I would prefer the Stg.44.
My impression of the BAR is to bring use a howitzer for shooting clay pigeons; effective but overkill. And if you have to carry everything yourselve.... well, I would prefer the Stg.44.
Armyjaeger
Active member
my impression of the BAR is that it is something between an automatic rifle and light machine gun, too heavy for a rifle and yet it doesn't really qualify as light machinegun, most effective use of the BAR is when its bibod is deployed but weren't those bibods removed from the later models :?
oh and my choise from the two would be the MP44, still somewhat heavy weapon by todays standards but much lighter than the BAR, target can be aquired more easily and faster with MP44.
oh and my choise from the two would be the MP44, still somewhat heavy weapon by todays standards but much lighter than the BAR, target can be aquired more easily and faster with MP44.