Israel massacres in bleaded gaza

[blackeagle]

please take a lokk on these pics..............

tell me now who is the criminal here??????????????

 

[A Can of Man]

Launching rocket attacks against Israel from heavily populated areas and drawing in a certain retaliation seems pretty criminal to me as well.
And from all accounts so far, looks like the Palestinian authorities were targeted and the air strikes have been pretty precise.
As for civilians casualties, well... let me put it this way. "When a war comes around, I love to hang around a SAM site." Now if the civilian who just said this died in an air strike, I think most of us would call him an idiot. Yeah, if Israeli jets are coming in to take out Palestinian Police and leadership targets, I'd say it's a good idea to steer clear of those areas.

 

[HokieMSG]

One thing to understand is that this was inevitable. Hamas was recently elected as the ruling party in Palestine. Hamas will never recognize Israeli legitamacy.
1. Hamas will continue to launch rockets from Gaza into Israel.
2. Israel will continue to retaliate.
3 Goto #1

Everyone that has tried to broker peace has failed.
In my mind there is no end in sight.

 

[papasha40]

One thing to understand is that this was inevitable. Hamas was recently elected as the ruling party in Palestine. Hamas will never recognize Israeli legitamacy.
1. Hamas will continue to launch rockets from Gaza into Israel.
2. Israel will continue to retaliate.
3 Goto #1

Everyone that has tried to broker peace has failed.
In my mind there is no end in sight.

I agree completely.

When the Palestinian People voted in Hamas, it was obvious they did not want peace. I liken the Israeli-Palestinian problem to a potentially friendly neighbor putting up with a yappy little dog who starts nipping at their ankles. Sooner or later.you are going to roll up a newspaper and wack the little bugger across the nose.

Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan support Hamas in a pretty direct way. China and Russia support Hamas in an indirect way.

What every Arab citizen must learn sooner I hope than later, Israel is not going away.

 

[blackeagle]

Launching rocket attacks against Israel from heavily populated areas and drawing in a certain retaliation seems pretty criminal to me as well.
And from all accounts so far, looks like the Palestinian authorities were targeted and the air strikes have been pretty precise.
As for civilians casualties, well... let me put it this way. "When a war comes around, I love to hang around a SAM site." Now if the civilian who just said this died in an air strike, I think most of us would call him an idiot. Yeah, if Israeli jets are coming in to take out Palestinian Police and leadership targets, I'd say it's a good idea to steer clear of those areas.

the rockets that hamas launched are normal reaction on esrael's blockade on gaza.
esrael was killing them by starving them and by preventing food,water and midicine on them.therefore what do you expect from hamas to do.to wait until all of gaza's population die?

 

[SHERMAN]

Hamas is a terrorist organization that negates the existance of Israel. It attacks civilians on purpose and on a daily basis. It uses Palestinian civilians as human shields. Israel is not the sovreign in Gaza and is not required by any law to provide anything to its inhabitanats. Non the less even during the fighting israel continues to provide electricety, allows humaneterian supplys in, and avoids attacking civilian targets. Naturally, its impossible to attack a terrorist group in urban terrain with out hurting civilians. This is sad but true. Israel has warned hammas several times that an attack will come if it dose not stop firing rockets at israeli civilian targets. Hammas chose to ignore. Now they want your pitty and they want israel to leave them alonw. too bad. If hamas wants the road blocks opened and the "blockade" to stop, it should start by aknowleging the state of israel and end terror attacks. If they do not do this, they can not and will not be treated as anything else but a terror organization.

 

[LeMask]

Well, we are dealing with a very complex situation there...

Hamas is really an extremist organisation... And Israel have a weird behavior for a democracy.

I know that the Israeli forces arent bombing blindly... But they attacked an university "close to Hamas" and the Hamas security forces...

Now, let me explain how I see things. Hamas is a large group, but there is the people who shoot rockets toward Israel, there is the people who make suicide attacks and there is the security forces.

The security forces are like local militias who keep order in the streets. They were bombed while they were making diploma ceremonies...
Do you really think that bombing futur security forces is a good idea?

Terrorists are terrorists... They dont use conventionnal attacks... They hide behind civilians. They just hide all the time. They dont gather by the hundreds to give terrorists diplomas... So a massive bombing isnt the right answer against terrorism.

What next? shoot people because they carry the colors of Hamas? It looks like terrorism to fight terrorism.

You cant bring peace in this area through fear. It wont work and it's wrong to do it.

And once again, I say that respect of human right and international laws is the key of success. Violence have to be used with a an extreem control. Because violence brings violence.

 

[SHERMAN]

And Israel have a weird behavior for a democracy.

what, most democracies allow people to target their civilians?

But they attacked an university "close to Hamas" and the Hamas security forces...

The Islamic University in Gaza is where most of the weapons development is done for hammas. It is a R&D center for rockets. Its also an ideological home of the Hammas movement. It is a legitemt target, by moral and international law.

The security forces are like local militias who keep order in the streets. They were bombed while they were making diploma ceremonies...
Do you really think that bombing futur security forces is a good idea?

Hammas police is a force used to terrorize moderate palestinians, support Hammas rrule in Gaza, and is part of the military abilety of the organization. Even by international law, attacking police forces is legitemet if they can be a military asset. The Hammas police is armed with rifles, RPGs, and machine guns. In event of ground operations they will be a part of the opposition to IDF forces. So yes, it is a very good idea

Terrorists are terrorists... They dont use conventionnal attacks... They hide behind civilians. They just hide all the time. They dont gather by the hundreds to give terrorists diplomas... So a massive bombing isnt the right answer against terrorism.

We have allowed a terrorist organization to become a party-state. In this we allowed it to openly parade and wear uniform as if its a legitemet "security force". Palestinian Police has always been involved in terror attacks and attacks on the IDF. You are making a seperation that dose not exist in the field.

And once again, I say that respect of human right and international laws is the key of success. Violence have to be used with a an extreem control. Because violence brings violence.

Where was your concern of international law in the last 4 years when Hammas acted against international law and attacked civilians daily? Israel is operating with in international laws right now. when it wont, ill be the first to say it isent. There is no legal problem with attacking police forces. there is also no legal problem with colleteral damage. im not sure you even know what international law says about colleteral damage and other issues.

 

[LeMask]

what, most democracies allow people to target their civilians?

Of course not. But you have to take out "their" from the whole sentence.

"democracies dont allow people to target civilians" is the correct way to say it. You have to keep the civilians in your mind whatever the side of the border they are in.
And I'm talking about allowing torture or "aggressive questionning" of whatever what they call that... Israel have a history in human right abuses. And I spare you the speech about all the US vetos to help Israel...

Okay for the university... If they make rockets there, It's a legitimate target. You have better informations than me on this one.

Okay, You have good arguments. I accept them.

But I still think that the main objective of terrorism is to not let the enemy use his superior arsenal. When I see the Israeli helicopters shooting rockets etc... I think that you are falling in a trap, because collateral damage will only promote terrorism...

I saw a video of an ex-Israeli ambassador on English Aljazeera, and he said to the journalist "you dont want to say it, but I will say it for you. maybe that the Hammas is celebrating the civilian casualties..."
and it was a good point. because civilian casulties are "good" is some twisted way to the terrorist groups...

 

[SHERMAN]

"democracies dont allow people to target civilians" is the correct way to say it. You have to keep the civilians in your mind whatever the side of the border they are in.

The fact that IAF planes are throwing 500 kg bombs in gaza for the past 4 days andd yet casualties are only in the houndreds and the great majorit are militants is a prrof that we do indeed keep their civilians in our mind. Im not saying its because we care, its because we dont want the world on our backs.

And I'm talking about allowing torture or "aggressive questionning" of whatever what they call that... Israel have a history in human right abuses. And I spare you the speech about all the US vetos to help Israel...

All countries that fought any conflicts have human rights violations. War is not a surgery, it is controled butcherry. As for torture, I hope neither of us has to face a situation in which we have to choose to torture a man for information or let civilians get killed by terror attacks. Morality is a *****. Its immoral to beat a tied man, but its also immoral not to do everything you can to stop a suicide bomber. Tough huh?
As for vetoes, I would like to remind you there are 20 somthing muslim countries in the UN, and only ione Jewish country. If we are not protected by our american friends, the arabs can pass a UN decision that all Israelis have horns and tails. They indeed went as far as to pass a UN decision that Zionisem is Racisem. This, if you know a little about it, is not anywhere close to fair.

But I still think that the main objective of terrorism is to not let the enemy use his superior arsenal. When I see the Israeli helicopters shooting rockets etc... I think that you are falling in a trap, because collateral damage will only promote terrorism...

I saw a video of an ex-Israeli ambassador on English Aljazeera, and he said to the journalist "you dont want to say it, but I will say it for you. maybe that the Hammas is celebrating the civilian casualties..."
and it was a good point. because civilian casulties are "good" is some twisted way to the terrorist groups...

You are unfortunatly correct, Hammas likes to see colleteral damage and uses it to gain support of people who lack military and middle eastern understanding. However, I believe that any sane person can understand Israel cannot stop this round of violence untill Hammas agrees to a reasonable cease fire. May I also remind you that Hammas refuses to negotiate directly with Israel, and openly calls for its destruction. Israel could easily take Gaza over and indeed could kill thousends of palestinians, but it dosent, because all it wants is for hammas to stop the rocket attacks. This is a case where all diplomatic channels have been exhausted, and time to kill, not to talk.
By ther way, israel is considering a 48 houre cease fire to allow humanitrian relief and allow hammas to agree to a cease fire. Lets see if Hammas really cares about its people or not.

 

[LeMask]

But once again there is a problem.
You wait for a terrorist organisation to make the right move? it's crazy. Their reason to exist is to not negociate with Israel.

The real problem is that the Palestinians want to fight Israel. And Israel didnt make a lot of effort to have a sane relation with the Palestinian people.
With the occupation and all this "collateral damage" is a nest for terrorism...

Of course, It's not easy for Israel to be friendly with the Palestinians...
But I think that Israel should step up and admit that there was a war with the Palestinians and the Arab countries. And that error were made in these extreem circumstances on both sides. These errors cant be repaired, but a new start is always possible.

I'm waiting for something of this kind from Israel because it's the right thing to do. And Israel is a democracy, the people of every nation should like that and support it as a democracy...

 

[SHERMAN]

I'm waiting for something of this kind from Israel because it's the right thing to do. And Israel is a democracy, the people of every nation should like that and support it as a democracy...

When the current Minster of Security Ehud Barak was Prime Minister, in 1999-2000, he offered 99% of the occupied territories with the 1% in other land. The Palestinians responded by starting the second intifada. What else do you want us to do, pack up and leave?

 

[LeMask]

No, pack up and leave is not an option.
a lot of people were born in the land of Israel, they have every right to stay there. I think that the "give back the lands" story is outdated.

What I mean is that Israel as a democracy should be loved by every people on earth. This is the real strength of a democracy.

First you have "power to the people" and then you have "it's the people who fights". A powerful combination.

If Israel took seriously its role as a democracy, the Palestinians and all the Arab countries would respect its laws and its principles. And the terrorists would have no public support.

But if you dont respect the human rights and behave like a dictatorship. The people will hate you and will support terrorists who promise to fight you.

Anyway... The answer is that you wont solve any problem dropping bombs. So dont abuse it. Use your firepower just to survive. And the real efforts have to be made in the diplomacy field.

Of course, until then, do what it takes to stay alive. be safe if you are called.

And the cease fire is a good thing.

 

[Wallabies]

If Israel took seriously its role as a democracy, the Palestinians and all the Arab countries would respect its laws and its principles. And the terrorists would have no public support.

Pull the other one mate, arab kids are brought up with teaching of hate against Israel and the rest of the west. Either that or they're all born a bit simple in the head and love strapping bombs to themselves.

 

[LeMask]

Well Wallabies, I dont believe that.

Like if said so many times here, there is no "evil" genes...

people just hate to be thrown out of their homes. People hate to see their people dying. People hate to starve to death. People hate to love their jobs etc. etc ...

If you are here to tell me that people love to strap on bombs then you are wasting your time... If you want to believe that, it's your choice. But I think that reality is different.

 

[SHERMAN]

But if you dont respect the human rights and behave like a dictatorship. The people will hate you and will support terrorists who promise to fight you.

This is not an issue of democracy vs tirany. Its true that israelsometimes takes harsh menas to protect itself. Its also true that democracy must sometimes defend itself with means that seem undemocractic. All civil right can clash with one another. Israel as a democracy in a bad neibourhood sometimes has to take away liberties. this is done towards jewish and arab extremeists, and i do not see it as an issue. A democracy that refuses to take harsh means against people who use their liberty to destroy the country from within is doomed. This was the case with the 2nd reich.

The issue is:
A) A conflict of intrests between two national movements- the israel iand the palestinian. Both see the same land as theirs, both find it hard to compremise.
B) The extremely radical militant-islam vs the western world. Israel is hated by Hammas, hezballah and others espcially because it is a democracy. they despise the western ways and see israel as the spearhead of the west.

Lemask, as always, your thoughts are moral and good. But your understanding of Islam and the Middle East lacks. I am a bvery liberal and peace loving person. I believe in civil rights and human rights. But i also believe that in order for 90% of people to have their rights, 10% must have some rights taken away.

 

[A Can of Man]

The fact that Hamas and the like who want their own people to die get away with it all the time is what is truly criminal.
I just don't see how this one can be argued with. Israel is clearly in the right.

 

[Chief Bones]

• Israel has a right to live their own destiny without outside interference.
• Hamas has as it's primary objective, the destruction of Israel.
• Hamas/Palestinians have broken more agreements/treaties than any other terrorist group in history.
• Sooner or later, the rest of the world is going to have to recognize that allowing ANY terrorist group to attack civilians, IS a crime against humanity and should NOT be allowed to continue. Either a country takes steps to address any terrorism or terrorist group within it's own borders, or they will be treated by the rest of the world as a terrorist state.

As far as I personally am concerned ... if Israel kills 75% of the civilians that are sheltering Hamas terrorists, tough turds. Stand in front of the targets on the firing range, then you deserve any holes in your carcass you end up getting. The same is true for the civilians that allow Hamas to hide in their neighborhoods.

​

While it is okay to be concerned about civilians dying (no matter where it takes place), it's obvious where the sympathies lie for those who point their fingers AT the Israelis when they respond to a terrorist attack ... with terrorists - that makes you not much better than the terrorists themselves. As far as I am concerned, the ONLY thing the terrorists or terrorist sympathizers deserve, is a 45 cal round behind their ear. That is how you deal with a rabid animal.
​

 

[A Can of Man]

Works with me.

 

[papasha40]

the rockets that hamas launched are normal reaction on esrael's blockade on gaza.
esrael was killing them by starving them and by preventing food,water and midicine on them.therefore what do you expect from hamas to do.to wait until all of gaza's population die?

If you look at the history of these hostilities, one thing becomes quite apperant. Israel and the west have given the Palestinian people more medicine, clothing, food, water and other needful things, than the entire Arab world has ever done. It's only been in the last six years or so, Hammas through Iran has given the Palestinians the medicine and food etc they need. Unfortunatly very sophosticated arms and ammunition are part of these supplies.

How can you expect a people to put up with constant rocket fire and mortar fire and suicide bombers every day. I take my hat off to Israel for being so restrained in this situation. Israel strikes at an aggressor and everyone screams about the collateral damage. Maybe if the Palestinian people kicked out their fanatics, there wouldn't be a problem.

I expect the United Nations to come up with another resolution condemning Israel again. But i've come to expect this from this unfit, prejudiced and disgracefull organization. And if a resolution is brought forward which does make sense, China and /or Russia will use their vetoes to kill it.

This may be getting off topic a bit, but maybe its time for the Western World, ( and any reasonable and democratic countries who wish to join ), to pull the plug on the U.N. and leave it to despots and fanatics. Maybe we should work through a new and re-vamped N.A.T.O.