Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.

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** PEACE - not BLOOD! Get it? The solution I support, not death and destruction, which Seno and his ilk beg for.

Is that some sort of sick joke?
They take over someone else's country, drive the occupants into neighbouring countries murdering those who resist, steal the land and then treat those remaining as second class citizens whilst starving, beating and murdering their women and children,... and you have the unmitigated gall to accuse others of wanting war.

The "logic" of your argument would have made Goebbels blush with envy.
 
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Yours is the sick joke - a travesty of the reality.

Funny thing - you claim to be an atheist, but I recognise in all your output on this issue the terrorist Islamist stance of Hamas, Hezbolah and Iran.

Like them, your purpose is the annihilation of Israel, regardless. So that peace is the very last thing to suit your requirements.

You claim to carry world opinion, but understand this - most stable countries, whilst having concerns regarding the blockade of Gaza, the war situation in the area, and the toughness of Israel's defensive attitudes, which is the only course open to them, do not support your project to destroy Israel, but like me, seek a peaceful 2 state solution.

So you can drop the idea that you speak for the world on this issue.

And take on board that the Jews have far greater claim to live in Israel than you will ever have to live in Australia.


Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War .
800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either forced out or fled their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel in 1948-1951, 600,000 by 1972. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of a coordinated effort among Arab governments to create physical and political insecurity. Most were forced to abandon their property. By 2002 these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population . One of the main representative bodies of this group, the World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries ,estimates that Jewish property abandoned in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). The organization asserts that the Jewish exodus was the result of a deliberate policy decision taken by the Arab League.

 
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Like them, your purpose is the annihilation of Israel, regardless.
You clown, I can't even effect my local council vote. You are delusional, and like Israel you see anyone who disagrees with you the anti christ.

So you can drop the idea that you speak for the world on this issue.
Naaahhh,..not while i have world opinion backing me. Read some acclaimed editorial, the papers are full of anti Israel stuff,... still, as they stumble from one self imposed disaster to another.

And take on board that the Jews have far greater claim to live in Israel than you will ever have to live in Australia.
You wouldn't know if your @rse was on fire, you don't even remember that you tried that argument 12 months ago and fell on your big fat duff. Or is this the lead in to your infamous "circular argument" again,.... and again, and again?:lol:

The Country That wouldn't Grow Up - Tony Judt.
“The problem with Israel, in short, is not—as is sometimes suggested—that it is a European ‘enclave’ in the Arab world: but rather that it arrived too late. It has imported a characteristically late-nineteenth-century separatist project into a world that has moved on, a world of individual rights, open frontiers, and international law. The very idea of a ‘Jewish state’—a state in which Jews and the Jewish religion have exclusive privileges from which non-Jewish citizens are forever excluded—is rooted in another time and place. Israel, in short, is an anachronism.

Seen from the outside, Israel still comports itself like an adolescent: consumed by a brittle confidence in its own uniqueness; certain that no one “understands” it and everyone is “against” it; full of wounded self-esteem, quick to take offense and quick to give it. Like many adolescents Israel is convinced – and makes a point of aggressively and repeatedly asserting – that it can do as it wishes, that its actions carry no consequences and that it is immortal.
Source: http://www.wrmea.com/archives/December_2006/0612022.html
http://israelblog.com/1147619908/
 
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Seno - you are so full of old pony, I will have to take a little interest in proceedings for a little while.
Get on with this one while I take a read of your latest. Meanwhile, think on this - just because you say something doesn't make it so.


Extracts from Times on line.
Read the complete article here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article5489436.ece

No, we are not all Hamas now
By Dominic Lawson

Those who claim the IDF also deliberately targets civilians don’t have to believe the official spokesman’s denials: they could speak to someone such as Colonel Richard Kemp, who commanded British Army campaigns in Afghanistan and Northern Ireland, and was most recently senior military adviser to the Cabinet Office. Kemp told me that Hamas deploys suicide attackers including women and children, and rigs up schools and houses with booby-trap explosives. Its leaders knew as a matter of certainty this would lead to civilian casualties if there was a ground battle. Virtually every aspect of its operations is illegal under international humanitarian law – ‘war crimes’ in the emotive language usually reserved for the Israelis”.
Colonel Kemp points out that if the IDF had no regard for civilian lives it would never have leafleted and telephoned residents in Gaza, warning them when it was about to attack their area: after all, that also gives Hamas notice – hardly the act of an army devoted to military victory at all costs. Similarly, the IDF’s unilateral commitment to a daily three-hour ceasefire to permit the evacuation (to Israel) of casualties, and for the passage of “humanitarian aid”, also allows Hamas time to regroup and redeploy for future attacks.
Of course, none of these arguments can penetrate the brains of the superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars who think it’s cool to go on marches chanting, “We are all Hamas now”. Even if these luvvies might not be aware that on Christmas Eve Hamas legalised crucifixion as a punishment for those who “weaken the spirit of the people”, and have been shooting such political enemies in the head when they find them in hospitals conveniently injured by Israeli bombing raids, they still deserve to be dismissed as useful idiots for a depraved death cult.
This is not exactly the classical doctrine of deterrence: it’s supposed to stop people attacking you in the first place. Yet the Israeli attack on Gaza is part of the same policy of delayed deterrence. Paradoxical though this might seem, it is also essential if the process towards an independent Palestinian state is to have a future. For until the people of Israel believe that such a state – including the heights of the West Bank, which overlook Tel Aviv – is not a threat to their own existence, they will never support a government which abandons those territories, won in an earlier war of self-defence.
If you believe otherwise, go to Yad Vashem.
dominic.lawson
 
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OK Red,... done.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello hello,... I distinctly hear Merry go round music.

You know that I have already posted video evidence of the Israelis using Palestinian children as human shields and we have also been shown that leafleting Gaza was a ploy merely to panic the civilian populace out into the open where they would be most at risk. You see DB it's hard to actually run anywhere safe when you live in one of the most densely occupied pieces of real estate on the face of the earth, so the leafleting was pointless except to drive the civilians away from any shelter and out into the open where the White Phosphorus and small arms fire could inflict the maximum casualties.

Finally I ask What on earth has Yad Vashem got to do with justifying the murder of innocent Palestinians, It appears that the writer has adopted the classic Israeli view. "We were treated as animals, now it's our turn to do the same to another totally innocent people.

So until you have something that is not part of your usual circular argument I'll stick firmly with my views and those of the majority of civilised people of the world. Who are at present showing their contempt for this pariah State in towns and cities around the world. You don't read the papers much do you?
 
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REDLEG - all calm here boss.


My Defence against propagandists League :- Timely Reminder :-


Colonel Richard Kemp, CBE, served in the British Army from 1977 - 2006. He was Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, an infantry battalion Commanding Officer, worked for the Joint Intelligence Committee and COBR and completed 14 operational tours of duty around the globe.

“I think – I would say that from my knowledge of the IDF and from the extent to which I have been following the current operation, I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza"

COLONEL RICHARD KEMP CBE .( Ex-Commander British Forces in Afghanistan.):-

General Stanley McChrystal, the new US commander of forces in Afghanistan, has said the reduction of unnecessary civilian casualties is one of his top priorities. It should be. That is also a high priority of British commanders in Afghanistan.
I have personally witnessed the efforts that American forces have been making for years in Iraq and Afghanistan to minimise civilian deaths. These have been impressive but of course they have not always worked in either of our armies.
In some cases because of the factors I have mentioned imperfect intelligence, technological failure, poor communications, the fog of war.
There is also another factor that we shouldn't forget. There will always be bad soldiers who deliberately or through incompetence go against orders. We have seen this in the British Army and among the Americans, in well-publicised cases in Iraq and elsewhere.
I have spoken of the considerable British and American efforts to operate within the laws of war and to reduce unnecessary civilian casualties. But what of the Israeli Defence Forces? The IDF face all the challenges that I have spoken about, and more. Not only was Hamas's military capability deliberately positioned behind the human shield of the civilian population and not only did Hamas employ the range of insurgent tactics I talked through earlier. They also ordered, forced when necessary, men, women and children , from their own population to stay put in places they knew were about to be attacked by the IDF. Fighting an enemy that is deliberately trying to sacrifice their own people. Deliberately trying to lure you in to killing their own innocent civilians.
And Hamas, like Hizballah, are also highly expert at driving the media agenda. They will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.
Their people often have no option than to go along with the charades in front of the world's media that Hamas so frequently demand, often on pain of death.
What is the other challenge faced by the IDF that we British do not have to face to the same extent?
It is the automatic, pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.
So what did the IDF do in Gaza to meet their obligation to operate within the laws of war? When possible the IDF gave at least four hours' notice to civilians to leave areas targeted for attack.
Attack helicopter pilots, tasked with destroying Hamas mobile weapons platforms, had total discretion to abort a strike if there was too great a risk of civilian casualties in the area. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were cancelled because of this.
During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. This sort of task is regarded by military tacticians as risky and dangerous at the best of times. To mount such operations, to deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands, is to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable.
But the IDF took on those risks.
In the latter stages of Cast Lead the IDF unilaterally announced a daily three-hour cease fire. The IDF dropped over 900,000 leaflets warning the population of impending attacks to allow them to leave designated areas. A complete air squadron was dedicated to this task alone.
Leaflets also urged the people to phone in information to pinpoint Hamas fighters vital intelligence that could save innocent lives.
The IDF phoned over 30,000 Palestinian households in Gaza, urging them in Arabic to leave homes where Hamas might have stashed weapons or be preparing to fight. Similar messages were passed in Arabic on Israeli radio broadcasts warning the civilian population of forthcoming operations.
Despite Israel's extraordinary measures, of course innocent civilians were killed and wounded. That was due to the frictions of war that I have spoken about, and even more was an inevitable consequence of Hamas' way of fighting.
By taking these actions and many other significant measures during Operation Cast Lead the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other Army in the history of warfare.
But the IDF still did not win the war of opinions - especially in Europe. The lessons from this campaign apply to the British and American armies and to other Western forces as well as to the IDF.
We are in the era of information warfare. The kind of tactics used by Hamas and Hizballah and by the Taliban and Jaish al Mahdi work well for them.
 
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Cue "The Carosel Waltz"

Already shown to be totally unrealistic,.... several times. Not a shred of evidence to support it and a flood of evidence to the contrary.

Round and round we go,....
 
Cue "The Carosel Waltz"

Already shown to be totally unrealistic,.... several times. Not a shred of evidence to support it and a flood of evidence to the contrary.

Round and round we go,....

What cracks me up is this ... "The IDF phoned over 30,000 Palestinian households in Gaza, urging them in Arabic to leave homes where Hamas might have stashed weapons or be preparing to fight. Similar messages were passed in Arabic on Israeli radio broadcasts warning the civilian population of forthcoming operations. "

Hmm how big is Gaza lets see what the CIA world fact book has to say...
Area - comparative: slightly more than twice the size of Washington, DC,
where exactly were all these people going to go the place is less than 8 miles wide and 30 miles long?

Were they going to flee to the mountains?
Maybe take to boats?
Perhaps they could pop over the border into friendly Israel?

Oh and one more small problem there are 1.3 million people in the area.
 
What cracks me up is this ... "The IDF phoned over 30,000 Palestinian households in Gaza, urging them in Arabic to leave homes where Hamas might have stashed weapons or be preparing to fight. Similar messages were passed in Arabic on Israeli radio broadcasts warning the civilian population of forthcoming operations. "

Hmm how big is Gaza lets see what the CIA world fact book has to say...

where exactly were all these people going to go the place is less than 8 miles wide and 30 miles long?

Were they going to flee to the mountains?
Maybe take to boats?
Perhaps they could pop over the border into friendly Israel?

Oh and one more small problem there are 1.3 million people in the area.

Here's my view on exactly the same stupid statement.
---snip--- You see DB it's hard to actually run anywhere safe when you live in one of the most densely occupied pieces of real estate on the face of the earth, so the leafleting was pointless except to drive the civilians away from any shelter and out into the open where the White Phosphorus and small arms fire could inflict the maximum casualties.
Was this another Israeli "accident" in the making or were they just trying to save on heavy weaponry? When it comes to the murder of innocent women and children, it would seem that the Israelis must be the most "accident" prone group of people on the face of the earth. Perhaps the Nazis should have tried that excuse, it seems to work well for the Israelis.
 
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It seems like time that this thread was given a bit of a dust off to allow another thread to stay on topic.

I have trimmed some of the waffle out of it. If you really want all of the whys and wherefores you may read it all here, http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil3.htm

Israeli Violations of International Law :

  • CREATION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL (1947-1954)*
  • 1. ILLEGAL ACQUISITION OF LAND BY FORCE: Israel annexes land occupied by force during 1948 war (lands external to those given by the UN partition plan) (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 2. FORBIDDING CIVILIANS THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES FOLLOWING THE END OF ARMED CONFLICT: Israeli government enacts laws, and employs its military to keep aproximately 750,000 Palestinian Arab civilians from returning to their homes following the end of fighting both in 1948 and in the occupied territories in 1967. Israel then violates UN resolutions ordering them to respect Palestinian's right to return to their homes (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 3. ILLEGAL POPULATION TRANSFER: Israel settles Israeli citizens in hundreds of Israeli settlements on occupied land not originally given to them in the UN Partition Plan (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 5. DESTRUCTION OF HOLY PLACES, AND INTERFERING WITH MINISTERS OF RELIGION PERFORMING THEIR RELIGIOUS DUTIES: Israeli forces have destroyed Muslim holy places, and interfered with the religious work of Muslim Imams (ministers) (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 7. ILLEGAL PRACTICE OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT: Israel repeatedly practices collective punishment against Palestinian acts of rebellion wherein an entire community is punished for the actions of a few (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • ISRAELI STATEHOOD (1948-present)*
  • 7. ILLEGAL PRACTICE OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT: Israel repeatedly practices collective punishment against Palestinian acts of rebellion wherein an entire community is punished for the actions of a few (laws & principles violated, international response).
  • 12. PRACTICE OF RACISM: One of the primary purposes that the European Zionist organizations had for starting the State of Israel was to create a Jewish State, where the Jewish people could find sanctuary, control things, and prosper. This understandably has led to the passage of laws which give special favor throughout Israeli society to the Jewish people over all other people, and especially the native Palestinian Arab people.---snip---.
  • 17. VIOLATION OF ARAB FAMILY UNITY: In 2003, the Israeli legislature (Knesset) passed legislation that forbade spouses of Arab-Israeli citizens who are in the occupied territories from joining their families in Israel (with exceptions---snip---.
  • ISRAELI OCCUPATION (1967-present)*
  • 8. ILLEGAL MILITARY OCCUPATION: The current Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal. Military actions and occupations are considered legal only if they are based on self-defense (as Israel claims) or are designed to benefit the native population of the occupied areas, but it is now clear that Israel's occupation is illegal because Israeli implementation of it clearly is about:
    • (1) Acquisition of land into Israel by force, and
    • (2) Economic exploitation of the occupied areas via building up de facto Annexation on occupied lands --
      • (A) Extensive modification of local laws, and
      • (B) Building Israeli settlements on occupied lands (illegal population transfer),
      • (C) Building separation barrier not on border but through Palestinian communities displacing over 200,000 Palestinian civilians separating them from their families, work, schools, hospitals, etc.
    • (3) Inhumane suppression of rebellion is implemented through --
      • (A) Practice of Collective Punishment, and
      • (B) Extensive violations of Palestinian Human Rights.
All 7 of these policy actions are illegal according to international law (see details below), which thus makes the occupation itself illegal. Press HERE for more details and quotes from the law concerning the legality of Israel's occupation.​
1. ILLEGAL ACQUISITION OF LAND BY FORCE: Israel annexes land taken by force during the 1967 war (East Jerusalem and Golan Heights) (laws & principles violated, international response).​
2. FORBIDDING CIVILIANS THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES FOLLOWING THE END OF ARMED CONFLICT: Israeli government enacts laws, and employs its military to keep Palestinian Arab civilians from returning to their homes ---snip---.​
3. ILLEGAL POPULATION TRANSFER: Israel settles Israeli citizens in hundreds of Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian land (laws & principles violated, international response).​
4. ILLEGAL MODIFICATION OF LOCAL LAW: Israel radically modifies local law following 1967 occupation beyond what is allowable under international law ---snip---​
6. ILLEGAL DE FACTO ANNEXATION: Israel creates de facto annexation of much of Palestinian territories occupied during 1967 war (as it radically alters local laws in order to apply Israeli law to the Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian lands, and in violation of Palestinian rights of self-determination largely to the benefit of the Israeli economy) (laws & principles violated, international response).​
7. ILLEGAL PRACTICE OF COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT: Israel repeatedly practices collective punishment against Palestinian acts of rebellion wherein an entire community is punished for the actions of a few (laws & principles violated, international response).​
9. VIOLATIONS OF RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION: Israel significantly violates the inalienable rights of self-determination of the Palestinian ---snip---​
15. GENOCIDE: Although numbers of massacres and other lethal methodologies have been documented throughout the history of the Zionists and the State of Israel, evidence suggests that the overall intention of the Zionists and the government of Israel was to drive the Palestinian Arab people out of the area rather than to destroy them as is required by the definition of Genocide. On the other hand, there is some evidence that Israel intended to destroy the society and culture and economy of those Arabs that refused to leave, which under the modern definition, this would be considered to be Genocide. (laws & principles violated, international response).​

  • GENERAL ZIONIST/ISRAELI VIOLATIONS*
10. VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS: Israel has significantly violated the human rights of the Palestinian people ---snip----
11. VIOLATIONS OF UN RESOLUTIONS: Israel has violated 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council (which are legally binding on member-nations), and almost 100 resolutions of the United Nations General Assembly (which are not binding, but represent the will and understanding of the international community). ---snip---
16. PRACTICE OF ETHNIC CLEANSING: The Zionist organizations, before the creation of the State of Israel, and then the Israeli government itself, have practiced many different forms of Ethnic Cleansing since the Zionist first came to Palestine in the early 1900's. The overt claim they rationalize this with is security concerns, but the greater long term reason is concern about maintaining a majority Jewish population so that they can maintain a democratic form of government which they dominate. Ethnic Cleansing is considered to be a severe breach of international law (laws & principles violated, international response).
 
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I'm gonna ignore the discussion and issue my own opinion for now, later i'll read it.

Jews came to Palestine saying "we're gonna make a country here cause we were here 2000 years ago" the Palestinians said no attempted to kick them out, Jews with the aid of USA won.

Next step Jews boot milions of Palestinians over a period of time giving them some money and taking their homes, people who wont leave get killed/abused/deported.

This makes Jews modern Nazis with the only difference being that Jews have to mind the public opinion, there's no doubt in my mind that if not for the public opinion Jews would just murder every Arab man woman and child in Palestine.

Terrorists is a too gentle word here.
 
I admire Israel's military prowess, as I do certain military commanders of the Third Riech, not out of love of their government's policies and unjust behaviors, but through a historical military view.

And as for Israel's situation of exisistance, and dealing with Palestine I won't comment.

And I say this out of sypmathy for the millions of people caught up and denied basic justices in Palestine, and those victims of terrorist acts throughout the region on both sides of the fence, and if you are like me and similarly minded,

Then you just don't really label your viewpoint particular to either side.

I won't throw support to a faction or group if I do not particularly understand the facts about the situation myself.

Which in highly emotional situations like the exsistance of Israel, it's difficult to find said facts with so much passion caught up with whoever is recording them.
 
If your land was invaded and seized by foreigners, what would you do?


Thats the thing, hasn't happened since 1812, and again in 1865.

But I wasn't alive then, so I can't really say,

I guess all I could say is I would react, how I don't really know. Hence why I haven't commented very much on the situation which is the topic here.
 
What happened to us?

How did we turn from a “villa in the jungle,” as Ehud Barak once characterized Israel, to just another animal in the jungle? How did it come to be that we informed the world that “we’ve gone mad,” and then were surprised to be treated as madmen? How did Israel shift from being the spiritual center of Ahad Ha’am and Ben Gurion’s light unto the nations to the “neighborhood bully?” How did it all happen without us noticing it?

Some say that in the Middle East you must behave in line with the local codes of conduct. Yet it is impossible to understand why Israeli society is so indifferent to the change it has undergone, and to its ability to kill hundreds of children and reconcile itself to it; with some people showing understanding, others concurring, and yet others showing enthusiasm. A society that does not engage in an incisive debate is a numb society with meager values. A society that treats its domestic critics as anathema, traitors, and evil beings is a different society than what we should have here.

Where do we draw the line? Is it after we killed one child, or 10, or 100, or 300? Would it happen next time, when we kill a thousand? Or perhaps it is the absence of a political border that dictates to us the absence of a moral border? Who even asks around here how would we know if we crossed the line? We should now be engaging in a moral battle with ourselves. It is not enough to have the IDF win or the government secure its objectives. Only once we complete our own domestic battle, we would be able to say that Israel won. For the time being, we keep on losing.
 
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What happened to us?

How did we turn from a “villa in the jungle,” as Ehud Barak once characterized Israel, to just another animal in the jungle? ---snip---
It has always been a concern of mine too, especially after what the Jewish people suffered 1933-1945.

Rather than showing to the world, how wrong this was, they seem to have gone out of their way to emulate it upon the Palestinian people. All the while complaining to anyone who will listen that the Jewish people have been given a raw deal through the ages. I can only say that the actions of Israel only reinforce the views of their detractors and gain new adherents to their cause.
 
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IDF is definately a superior force in any respect, but did anyone ever ask the Israeli citizens wether or not they wanted to be a superior race?

As long as there is a threat from the Islamic world, Israel will feel a need to defend themselves, and by exaggerating those defensive actions they fuel the anger on the other side.

And the "Carousel waltz" turns into a deadly spin...
 
IDF is definately a superior force in any respect, but did anyone ever ask the Israeli citizens wether or not they wanted to be a superior race?

As long as there is a threat from the Islamic world, Israel will feel a need to defend themselves, and by exaggerating those defensive actions they fuel the anger on the other side.

And the "Carousel waltz" turns into a deadly spin...
Well, there's a quick way to stop that,... it's time to take away the handle from the man who keeps on winding up the phonograph. See post #151.
 
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