If the Me 262 was finished sooner.....
Mark Conley
Active member
Maybe for a short while. But the allies were quick to counter the ME-262 tactical advantage in speed by nitrous injection of several fighters to catch it with speed. It would have spurred quicker development of the British Meteor, or the US P-80, because the need would have shown.
It just that by the time the allies got in full production of bombers, and could have probably built more than the ME-262's could shoot down.
just my rambly opinion. :shoothea:
It just that by the time the allies got in full production of bombers, and could have probably built more than the ME-262's could shoot down.
just my rambly opinion. :shoothea:
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I tend to agree although I tend to think that any reprieve for German war industry would have caused the allies problems, the one thing the Germans should have done was freed up their nightfighters to operate over English airfields as they did in the early part of the war because with the 1000 bomber raids in effect they would have had a field day shooting down tired bomber crews on the way home and forming up.
The biggest problem for the Me-262 was not the aircraft nor its production but the lack of trained pilots and fuel.
mmarsh
Active member
I also agree with the Final analysis. It would have caused fearsome damage to the Allied bomber force but would have not changed the direction of the war in the long run. I dont see how the 262 would have effected the ground war.
Second of all the Britsh Meteor was already in Service in 1945 but was limited to V-1 interception over the channel. The Meteor *could* have faced the 262 in combat but didnt for security reasons because the RAF was afraid a crash might be recuperated by the Germans. If however the Germans put had increased the number of 262 I am certain the RAF would have forced to use the Meteor to defend the Bombers as Monty suggested.
Also the US P-80A was also available but in very small numbers and stationed only in America, however increased Me-262 activity would have certainly pushed its devolpment.
Partisan
Active member
Surely we're missing an important fact. At the time the 262 could start to come on stream is when the German industrial areas were suffering their greatest damage from the Allies.
Yes production could've been ramped up, what would have given way, tanks? guns? What woul've been the impact of those lost weapons on the very pressed German front line.
Much as I love the 262 and wonder about its frontline effectiveness, I don; think that it would have had a significant effect on the war, but it is stilla beauty to look at and a wonder of engineering.
Yes production could've been ramped up, what would have given way, tanks? guns? What woul've been the impact of those lost weapons on the very pressed German front line.
Much as I love the 262 and wonder about its frontline effectiveness, I don; think that it would have had a significant effect on the war, but it is stilla beauty to look at and a wonder of engineering.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I don't think we are missing the point at all, as I recall (and these are rough numbers) in the 4 months of 1945 they produced about 1400 ME-262s but due to fuel restrictions and the number of trained personnel only 80 of them were serviceable at any one time.
Now had the ME-262 been available in numbers when it was first ready for mass production ie 1943 it would have made a significant impact on the air war however much like everything else going on at the time political interference held up production until it was far too late.
Partisan
Active member
Valid, for all the reasons stated, plus 1 - lack of suitable launch areas for the 262.
I checked up on my limited reources & then wikipedia, they seem to agree that (lifted straight from Wikipedia):
The 003 engines, which were proving unreliable, were replaced by the newly available Junkers Jumo 004. Test flights continued over the next year, but the engines continued to be unreliable. Airframe modifications were complete by 1942, but hampered by the lack of engines, serial production did not begin until 1944. This delay in engine availability was in part due to the shortage of strategic materials, especially metals and alloys able to handle the extreme temperatures produced by the jet engine. Even when the engines were completed, they had an expected operational lifetime of approximately 50 hours; in fact, most 004s lasted just 12 hours.
Whilst not disputing the numbersof 262 produced, not their effect, tactics were quickly developed to counter the 262.
I come back to my original point, had production started earlier, with the consequent strain on engines and thus skilled manpower, materiel and other logisitic support what would have given way? The German war machine was at full throttle, the Allied air forces concentrating on defeating the German industrial capability. Yes the air war would've been in the balance, but then the ground war might have seen some other gains.
I checked up on my limited reources & then wikipedia, they seem to agree that (lifted straight from Wikipedia):
The 003 engines, which were proving unreliable, were replaced by the newly available Junkers Jumo 004. Test flights continued over the next year, but the engines continued to be unreliable. Airframe modifications were complete by 1942, but hampered by the lack of engines, serial production did not begin until 1944. This delay in engine availability was in part due to the shortage of strategic materials, especially metals and alloys able to handle the extreme temperatures produced by the jet engine. Even when the engines were completed, they had an expected operational lifetime of approximately 50 hours; in fact, most 004s lasted just 12 hours.
Whilst not disputing the numbersof 262 produced, not their effect, tactics were quickly developed to counter the 262.
I come back to my original point, had production started earlier, with the consequent strain on engines and thus skilled manpower, materiel and other logisitic support what would have given way? The German war machine was at full throttle, the Allied air forces concentrating on defeating the German industrial capability. Yes the air war would've been in the balance, but then the ground war might have seen some other gains.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
But you are over looking a couple of points, in 1943:
1) Germany was still in control of the Ploesti oil fields thus fuel shortages were less accute.
2) The Luftwaffe still had an effective pilot training program.
3) D-Day was still in the planning stages and without air superiority it probably would not have gone ahead when it did hell had the ME-262 been available in numbers mid to late 1943 the Salerno may well have been delayed as well.
The Allies understood the having total air superiority was the only way these invasions were going to succeed, on top of this the Luftwaffe would have had time and secure airfields to train and equip squadrons properly as well as work out several of the bugs before the Allies got a competing jet into the air.
I don't believe the ME-262 would have changed the outcome of the war but I do believe it could have extended it into 1946.
1) Germany was still in control of the Ploesti oil fields thus fuel shortages were less accute.
2) The Luftwaffe still had an effective pilot training program.
3) D-Day was still in the planning stages and without air superiority it probably would not have gone ahead when it did hell had the ME-262 been available in numbers mid to late 1943 the Salerno may well have been delayed as well.
The Allies understood the having total air superiority was the only way these invasions were going to succeed, on top of this the Luftwaffe would have had time and secure airfields to train and equip squadrons properly as well as work out several of the bugs before the Allies got a competing jet into the air.
I don't believe the ME-262 would have changed the outcome of the war but I do believe it could have extended it into 1946.
perseus
Active member
Regarding suitable escort aircraft, I cannot imagine the Meteor would have suitable range. Propellor aircraft seem to hit a barrier around 500mph whatever fuel you use due to compressibility effects, and it must be very fuel intensive to push an aircraft to this speed, especially over Germany without a base on the continent. It would have posed a problem for daylight raids and bombing the oilfields in particular.
Once a forward base had been established I suppose conventional fighter aircraft could hover over the airfields waiting of the 262s taking off as they did later in the war.
Once a forward base had been established I suppose conventional fighter aircraft could hover over the airfields waiting of the 262s taking off as they did later in the war.
redcoat
Active member
If they had been mass produced in 1943 they would have sat around Luftwaffe airfields until the problems with the Jumo 004 had been rectified enough to allow at least some operational use.
While Hitlers bomber order did cause some delay in the mass production of the airframes, it mattered little in the timing of operational debut of the Me 262
http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
In part I agree however had the project been given priority as it should have given the position Germany was in it would have had more effort put into solving these engine problems as well, the problem is that for at least a year the aircraft was worked on more as a clandestine project instead of receiving the time and resources it needed to get off the ground.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
The Meteor clocking 417 mph at a height of 10,000 feet had a range of 1,000 miles. So perhaps it could have been employed as an escort. However, I have no idea as to its ability as a dog fighter up against FW190's, 109's or indeed 262's.
During the Korean war the Meteor was outclassed by the MIG15, suffering heavy loses. The Meteor was then relegated to the ground attack role.
Last edited:
perseus
Active member
Perhaps Hitler was more obsessed with his offensive vengeance weapons, particularly the V2 which sapped essential resources and expertise. In fact every one of these helped the allied war effort more than the German.
The Other Guy
Spam King
Had it been produced and perfected earlier it would have lengthened the war but it the outcome would have still likely been the same. It would have sped up the creation of more British and American technology and the F-80 would have been rushed into service much faster.
redcoat
Active member
The Meteor Mk III, with extended nacelles which was the last mark of the Meteor to see active service in the European war, had a maximum speed of 493 mph, making it the fastest Allied fighter of WW2
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
The Meteor went through quite a few modifications from the F1 to the F3, then to the F4 in 1947.
The longer nacelles added to the F3 increased its speed by 75MPH even without engine changes.
I remember seeing Meteors at RAF Changi as late as 1967 used at target tugs.
Last edited:
LeEnfield
Active member
Th Meteor took the world speed record in 1945 a few weeks after the war with a top speed of 612 mph. This was both ways over a flat measured course [no diving allowed] and confirmed with radar. Okay the lines of the Meteor were no so sleek as the 262 but it was a good rugged aircraft with far better engines than the 262. It was not until the later stages of the war was the Meteor sent out to Belgium at the request of the American to help protect their bomber formations from the 262. There was, as far as I know no combat between the two aircraft.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Yes but to be fair had the Germans been allowed to continue development of their jet program they would have had a myriad of jet aircraft in the air by the end of 1945 you just have to look at the aircraft the Horton brothers and Kurt Tank had in development to see that the allies were going to be behind German aircraft development for a good couple of years.
mmarsh
Active member
You are correct that the Meteor didn't have the range for a full escort mission but by 1944-1945 they could have been based in France as close to the front lines as possible to compensate for their lack of range. Remember the 262 had range problems of its own.