If Japan Had Attacked the Soviet Union

Would the Axis destroy the Soviet Union and take control of Europe?

  • Yes, eventually the Red Army would be destroyed.

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • No, the Red Army would still push the Axis out.

    Votes: 5 83.3%
  • Total voters
    6
MosquitoMan

MosquitoMan

Active member
What do you think would happen if Japan and Germany had simultaneously attacked the Soviet Union, instead of Japan attacking America? Germany from the west and Japan from the south. Would America have joined the war if it wasn't attacked?

I don't think the Red Army would have been able to protect itself from two fronts. Japan would take the oil fields south of Stalingrad. Thus extending the reach of the Japanese and German troops in the Soviet Union. Together, the two Axis Powers would push the Soviet Union back until they had no army left. Great Britain would be the only country against the Axis in Europe. I think America would join the war eventually, but by that time they would pretty much be fighting the war alone. And at some point a treaty would be signed.
 
im sorry...buts lets get realistic...

the japanese would have had to stretch a battle and a supply line across the great wilderness and then the ural mountains. I think they would have been very stretched to do this...as they also was imbroiled in a neck deep war with china.

The environment of siberia is one of the harshest known...and i dont believe that the japanese soldier was eqquipped to deal with it.

My belief is that the Soviets would have stopped them..and used them for slave labor after the first battle.

just my opinion :D
 
My belief is that the Soviets would have stopped them..and used them for slave labor after the first battle.

Of course the Japanese would have been stopped, but that would of allowed the Germans to break free.
 
I honestly am not sure but I voted that the Ruskies would of pushed them back. When you think about it, your talking about 2 nations with great size populations(of course Russian having more) but also, they both fight to the LAST man. Japan surrendered the least amount of forces out of all countrys during WWII, and the Russians would just send man after man into the line to die for the motherland. Its just like saying the Russians invading Japan, 2 different land types, both hard ass soldiers. Its at the toss of a hat really.
 
Im no expert when it comes to the stuff Russia had going over in the far east, but was there a real large oppurtunity for the Japanese Navy to play a role over there? I mean, the Navy was the crown jewl of the Imperial Empire...
 
Japan doesn't need to go anywhere near Stalingrad, Moscow or anywhere else in order to help the Germans. Just the possible threat of a Japanese excursion into Siberia might have possibly changed the outcome of Barbarossa. History tells us that Zhukov arrived with 25 fresh Siberian divisions that aided in the defence of Moscow and the resulting Soviet counterattack. That probably wouldn't have happened..

There's no way of telling what would have happened for sure, but without those Siberian divisions coming to Moscow's aid the Wehrmacht would not have been pushed back as far as it was and may have even been able to conduct a limited siege of Moscow. Certainly in the spring of '42 the Wehrmacht would be much further forward than it was historically and this may have persuaded Hitler to go all out for Moscow as his generals wanted instead of adopting Fall Blau.

Importantly also, the Soviets would not have achieved their first strategic victory over the Wehrmacht with all the morale boosting benefits such a victory would bring. The Wehrmacht would still have its aura of invincibilty and Stalin's position would be that much weaker as a result.

For the record the Imperial Japanese Army were not equipped for fighting in harsh winter terrain and likely would have had their asses handed to them by the same Siberian divisions that saved Moscow.
 
Yea, Zhukov had already whipped the Japanese in Manchuria, and he would of done it again. But like you said, as long as his forces wern't at Moscow, the Germans may have been able to walk in.
 
Firstly:

Mosuito: How the hell could Japan attack south of the caucasus?!? Rommel was in a far better position to do so but he didn't have a chance :shock:

Secondly:

Japan if it would not attack Pearl Harbour would run out of oil in a few months due to the US embargo. Infact the very reason for Pearl Harbour taking place on December 7th was that a month from that Japan could no longer strike due to oil shortages.

Thirdly:

Japans army proved inferior (when not fighting on islands and in any way close to the sea) to any other foe. They couldn't defeat China in 14 years of war!!! Also every skirmish that historicaly took place in Manchuria betwen Jap and SU went decicevely to the Soviets. One must not also forget the campagin in Manchuria in 1945 when in a matter of days the Red Army overran the Kwangtung army and occupied teritory the size of Western Europe (the Soviet forces numbered soume 1.500.000 vs. the Japanese strenght of 1.000.000).

As for the SU being streched on two fronts IMO it could hold as even after transfering reserves to the west they kept 400.000 men in the far east. I think it would take MUCH longer than historicly but eventualy the SU would prevail as Japan would fall (in the mainland at least) followed by a transfer of all available troops to the west wich would already be battle-hardened in contrast to 1941!

And it would also be important that China would get a direct route for suplies after the Burma road got cut-off! Imagine 1000 T-34 appering in China against the flimsy Japanese tanks!!!
 
Let's not forget that Stalin was pledging for help from Western Allies :D
If Japan attacked USSR instead of USA, than Reds would be completely wiped of the planet! :D 'Cause USA woudn't be there on 6th June '44 to save Soviet asses ;)
 
Uncle_Sam said:
'Cause USA woudn't be there on 6th June '44 to save Soviet asses ;)
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It is debatable who was saving whos ass. In 1944 SU didn't need help anymore, also in the battle of the Bulge the west begged Stalin to accelerate the preperations wor the final Soviet offensive to take the pressure of the Americans in the Ardenes. The ofensive was in fact launched weeks ahead of its planed time so don't get to carried away ;););)
 
Yes, although my hatred of all things communist, it pains me to say that in relation to the grand scheme, the US and Britain did not save the Soviets ass with Normandy, or anything else.
 
If Japan had invaded they would have more than likely invaded through the North and south in a pincer attack. Surround the USSR forces and forvce a surrender.
 
airmanpatroler said:
If Japan had invaded they would have more than likely invaded through the North and south in a pincer attack. Surround the USSR forces and forvce a surrender.
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Japan didn't attack the Soviets for 3 reasons.

First, there was very little for them to gain if they did so, Siberia was at that time thousands of miles of nothingness.

Secondly, The Japanese army was an infantry army with very few tanks( and the ones they had were crap) and almost no transport. If they invaded the majority of their army would have to walk :roll: Their logistics would fail before they got anywhere.

Thirdly, They had already taken on the Soviets in the 30's and the Soviets had kicked their butts. The Japanese military wasn't in the mood to get their butts kicked again

In 1941 the Italians attacked the British in N,Africa with a massive army very similar to the Japanese army, lots of infantry with very few tanks and transport. A very small but highly mobile British force using the open spaces of the desert cut them to pieces.
The same thing would have happened to the Japanese if they had tried to take on the Soviets in the vastness of Siberia.
 
One must not also forget the campagin in Manchuria in 1945 when in a matter of days the Red Army overran the Kwangtung army and occupied teritory the size of Western Europe (the Soviet forces numbered soume 1.500.000 vs. the Japanese strenght of 1.000.000).
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In 1941 the situation in the Russian army was hopeless and not comparable with the situation the Russian Army was in during the Manchurian campaign. Stalin had about 75% off the Red Armies officers executed 3 or 4 years before Barbarossa began.

If wiping out the USSR would have been the goal of both the Japanese and Germans and they where planning a combined assault then why would the Japanese even bother to attack Pearl Harbor knowing that after conquering Russia oil would be available in large numbers. With that in mind it would be more logical for the Japanese Imperial Navy to whoop the British Imperial Navy's ass and to start hauling troops to Europe for a massive assault starting in Western Russia or hauling German troops and equipment (mostly tanks/aircraft) to Japanese held territory. Another option could be joining Rommels force and attack from the south.

Rick
 
Dutchy said:
If wiping out the USSR would have been the goal of both the Japanese and Germans
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Thats the major, major problem, it wasn't a goal of the Japanese. They wanted natural resources, like oil, rubber, etc.

Attacking Russia would not give them these.

and they where planning a combined assault then why would the Japanese even bother to attack Pearl Harbor knowing that after conquering Russia oil would be available in large numbers.
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During WW2 the Japanese and Germany didn't combine on anything important. They weren't Allies in the true sense, more fellow travellers. The Japanese hadn't even bothered to tell Hitler of the attack on Pearl Harbor, he only found out after the attack.
As for Russian oil being available to them, if Russia was defeated. Only if Hitler allowed it, and the Japanese in truth trusted Hitler as much as the rest of the world did ;)
With that in mind it would be more logical for the Japanese Imperial Navy to whoop the British Imperial Navy's ass and to start hauling troops to Europe for a massive assault starting in Western Russia or hauling German troops and equipment (mostly tanks/aircraft) to Japanese held territory. Another option could be joining Rommels force and attack from the south.
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These are all totally impossible, The Japanese didn't have the logistic capability to transport and supply over such an immense distance. Even if they attempted it, the supply routes would be very exposed to allied attack, the Japanese navy while impressive when it came to heavy units, was lacking in smaller vessels for use in convoy escort duties.
 
I believe the Japanese had amassed an Army to invade the Soviet Union but were crushed by Soviet Artillery, Japan so badly feared the Soviets from that day forth that even when the opportunity was ripe the would not attack.
 
The problem with these sort of discussions is that they are hypothetical and it looks like most people tend to forget this and compare the hypothesis with the actual situation and or events during WW2. By doing this it is really easy to argument why it would not work out.

Rick
 
Dutchy said:
The problem with these sort of discussions is that they are hypothetical and it looks like most people tend to forget this and compare the hypothesis with the actual situation and or events during WW2. By doing this it is really easy to argument why it would not work out.

Rick
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If you don't base the hypothesis in fact, its totally worthless.
 
the japs would have been stretched too dont forget....

they would have had to still do pearl before they atacked SU for thew oil...so they would be fighting on 2 fronts as well.....and all the SU had to do was send china equiptment and leave them too it....they would have plenty of warning if the japs broke through and then they could worry about defending the ''motherland''
 
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