Rob Henderson
Banned
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20100322/hl_hsn/housedemocratsapprovehealthcarereformbill
Ladies and gentlemen... WE DID IT!
Ladies and gentlemen... WE DID IT!
House Democrats Pass Healthcare Reform
- Status
mmarsh
Active member
Anyone hear of Limbaugh promise to move to Costa Rica if the Bill passed? I wonder if he needs help packling???
Of course his promise makes as much sense as the rest of his idiocy, Costa Rica has a very good Socialized Healthcare System. So apparently Rush was thinking thats its only bad for Americans to get Socialized medicine, but in Costa Rica its perfectly fine.
This bill is far from perfect, and we have along way to go until a single payer system, but its a start, and hopefully the Senate revisions will be passed quickly through reconcilation.
Of course his promise makes as much sense as the rest of his idiocy, Costa Rica has a very good Socialized Healthcare System. So apparently Rush was thinking thats its only bad for Americans to get Socialized medicine, but in Costa Rica its perfectly fine.
This bill is far from perfect, and we have along way to go until a single payer system, but its a start, and hopefully the Senate revisions will be passed quickly through reconcilation.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I wonder what kind of changes this will really bring.
Higher taxes immediately, but most "benefits" don't start for 4 years. Pelosi et al have said this is only a 1st step, no doubt on the road to full nationalization. A big win for Socialists & Statists.
KnightTemplar
Active member
I wonder how long this will take before it turns into another failure like the UPS, Social Security, ect?
Most government programs fail because they seldom are tied to any specific performance objectives or precisely-defined goals. Congress passes a law, throws a bunch of money at it, and goes on to the next hair-brained idea. History has taught us that Government Social Programs are almost always unsuccessful. Most, but not all, of the past social programs have been started by Democrats. They have always had good intentions, but their results have almost always been a failure. Politicians always want to be judged on their good intentions rather than the results of their efforts. Do you need proof? Then let's examine the following historical facts;
The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775. The service has had 235 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. The USPS is broke, heavily subsidized by taxpayers, and comes back to the taxpayers year after year for postage rate increases. They can't compete with private sector mail delivery services i.e. FedEx and UPS services and now the USPS is proposing to close hundreds of offices nationwide to reduce costs. A good example of how the US Government cannot compete with free market capitalist ingenuity.
Social Security was established in 1935 by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat) as part of his huge "New Deal" social program package. The Government has had 75 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. The Social Security system is broke. Contrary to popular belief, there is no longer a Social Security Trust Fund. In 1965 President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat), as part of his sweeping "Great Society" social program, changed the law so that Social Security funds were removed from the independent "Trust Fund." Social Security funds were placed into the General Fund for additional congressional revenue to be used as Congress wishes. As of this year, Social Security's costs alone exceed tax income for the year. Again, the program is broke.
Fannie Mae (The Federal National Mortgage Association) was established in 1938 by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat) as a mechanism to make home mortgages available to low income families. The Government has had 72 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. Fannie Mae is in serious financial trouble as evidenced by the mortgage crisis earlier last year.
Freddie Mac (The Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp.) was established in 1970 by President Richard Nixon (Republican) to expand the secondary market for home mortgages in the U.S. The Government has had 40 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. Together with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac has now led the entire world into the worst economic collapse in 80 years.
The War on Poverty was started in 1964 by President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) as part of his massive "Great Society" social program package. It was the Governments attempt to reduce poverty from the then 19 percent rate. The Government has had 46 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. $1 trillion of our tax dollars are collected each year and transferred to "the poor" and yet the national poverty level still stands at 13.2% as of 2008, and that was before the economy fully collapsed. The program hasn't worked as intended.
Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 by President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat), as another part of his sweeping "Great Society" Social Program. The government has had 45 years to improve the programs and make them self sustaining. Both programs are in serious financial trouble and our government dares to mention them as models for all US health care reforms.
AMTRAK was established in 1970 by President Richard Nixon (Republican) to provide inter-city train service in the U.S. The Government has had 40 years to make AMTRAK profitable but the program has failed miserably. Last year the government bailed out AMTRAK again, as it continues to operate at a loss!
Stimulus Bill of 2009 — Over a trillion dollars was committed in a massive political payoff to Democratic supporters. The bill shows NO signs of working as advertised. It's been used to increase the size of state and local governments across America, and raise government salaries. It has yet to create a single new private sector permanent job, the so called jobs that were "created" in nonexistent districts don't count. Our national debt projections have increased 400 percent in six months. The Government continues to print money, spending money that we don't have and running America further and further into debt for our great grandchildren and their children. Although the Zimbabwean dollar was considered to be among the highest valued currency units when it was first introduced in 1980 hyperinflation and uncontrolled printing of money rapidly eroded the value of the Zimbabwe dollar to eventually become one of the least valued currency units in the world. On the release date of the $100 billion banknote, it could buy you 3 eggs. That is the direction the U.S. dollar will be heading if something isn't done to curb the out of control spending and printing of money in Washington D.C. So far, the Stimulus Bill of 2009 is a failure when compared to how it was presented to us. AND, the President is considering another Stimulus Bill to bail out the first one.
"Cash for Clunkers' was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009 — after 80 percent of the cars purchased turned out to be produced by FOREIGN companies, not GM, Chrysler or Ford. Dealers nationwide are buried under a mountain of bureaucratic paperwork demanded by a government that is not yet paying them what was promised.
So with a perfect 100 percent failure rate and a record that proves that each and every 'social service program" started by an over-reaching government turns into disaster, how could any informed American trust our government to run or even set policies for an American health care reform system that will equal 17 percent of our entire economy?
Most government programs fail because they seldom are tied to any specific performance objectives or precisely-defined goals. Congress passes a law, throws a bunch of money at it, and goes on to the next hair-brained idea. History has taught us that Government Social Programs are almost always unsuccessful. Most, but not all, of the past social programs have been started by Democrats. They have always had good intentions, but their results have almost always been a failure. Politicians always want to be judged on their good intentions rather than the results of their efforts. Do you need proof? Then let's examine the following historical facts;
The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775. The service has had 235 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. The USPS is broke, heavily subsidized by taxpayers, and comes back to the taxpayers year after year for postage rate increases. They can't compete with private sector mail delivery services i.e. FedEx and UPS services and now the USPS is proposing to close hundreds of offices nationwide to reduce costs. A good example of how the US Government cannot compete with free market capitalist ingenuity.
Social Security was established in 1935 by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat) as part of his huge "New Deal" social program package. The Government has had 75 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. The Social Security system is broke. Contrary to popular belief, there is no longer a Social Security Trust Fund. In 1965 President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat), as part of his sweeping "Great Society" social program, changed the law so that Social Security funds were removed from the independent "Trust Fund." Social Security funds were placed into the General Fund for additional congressional revenue to be used as Congress wishes. As of this year, Social Security's costs alone exceed tax income for the year. Again, the program is broke.
Fannie Mae (The Federal National Mortgage Association) was established in 1938 by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat) as a mechanism to make home mortgages available to low income families. The Government has had 72 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. Fannie Mae is in serious financial trouble as evidenced by the mortgage crisis earlier last year.
Freddie Mac (The Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp.) was established in 1970 by President Richard Nixon (Republican) to expand the secondary market for home mortgages in the U.S. The Government has had 40 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. Together with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac has now led the entire world into the worst economic collapse in 80 years.
The War on Poverty was started in 1964 by President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) as part of his massive "Great Society" social program package. It was the Governments attempt to reduce poverty from the then 19 percent rate. The Government has had 46 years to improve the program and make it self sustaining. $1 trillion of our tax dollars are collected each year and transferred to "the poor" and yet the national poverty level still stands at 13.2% as of 2008, and that was before the economy fully collapsed. The program hasn't worked as intended.
Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 by President Lyndon Johnson (Democrat), as another part of his sweeping "Great Society" Social Program. The government has had 45 years to improve the programs and make them self sustaining. Both programs are in serious financial trouble and our government dares to mention them as models for all US health care reforms.
AMTRAK was established in 1970 by President Richard Nixon (Republican) to provide inter-city train service in the U.S. The Government has had 40 years to make AMTRAK profitable but the program has failed miserably. Last year the government bailed out AMTRAK again, as it continues to operate at a loss!
Stimulus Bill of 2009 — Over a trillion dollars was committed in a massive political payoff to Democratic supporters. The bill shows NO signs of working as advertised. It's been used to increase the size of state and local governments across America, and raise government salaries. It has yet to create a single new private sector permanent job, the so called jobs that were "created" in nonexistent districts don't count. Our national debt projections have increased 400 percent in six months. The Government continues to print money, spending money that we don't have and running America further and further into debt for our great grandchildren and their children. Although the Zimbabwean dollar was considered to be among the highest valued currency units when it was first introduced in 1980 hyperinflation and uncontrolled printing of money rapidly eroded the value of the Zimbabwe dollar to eventually become one of the least valued currency units in the world. On the release date of the $100 billion banknote, it could buy you 3 eggs. That is the direction the U.S. dollar will be heading if something isn't done to curb the out of control spending and printing of money in Washington D.C. So far, the Stimulus Bill of 2009 is a failure when compared to how it was presented to us. AND, the President is considering another Stimulus Bill to bail out the first one.
"Cash for Clunkers' was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009 — after 80 percent of the cars purchased turned out to be produced by FOREIGN companies, not GM, Chrysler or Ford. Dealers nationwide are buried under a mountain of bureaucratic paperwork demanded by a government that is not yet paying them what was promised.
So with a perfect 100 percent failure rate and a record that proves that each and every 'social service program" started by an over-reaching government turns into disaster, how could any informed American trust our government to run or even set policies for an American health care reform system that will equal 17 percent of our entire economy?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
There are plenty of places between full privitization and full nationalization. Many countries settle for a combined or mixed system. So immediately assuming that the goal is FULL nationalization across the board is a bit of a jump to conclusions.
And for the 40 BILLIONTH TIME. Government run programs are NOT MEANT to EARN any money. By nature they run on a loss. That is why you cannot nationalize everything. Why is this so HARD for some people to understand? You might consider the military a collossal failure then because all it ever does is spend spend and spend. Same goes for the police as well. Might as well get rid of all of those because they are BROKE. It is a tradeoff between stability and profitability. A government run program, if run by people with a brain as is the case in most developed countries, is stable since it cannot really go out of business due to a lack of customers. But don't count on it to earn any money. Imagine you had to disband the military every time there was no war because there was no money to support it. Now that would be a nightmare wouldn't it? So what do you do? You trade off its ability to earn money and replace it with stability so that even with a 50 year stretch without any shooting, you have a military in working order.
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The Other Guy
Spam King
What about the "failure" of the biggest and best funded socialized organization of them all, the military? Certainly you don't think the Army has been a failure?
A nationalist healthcare system can work, so long as we give it a chance.
A nationalist healthcare system can work, so long as we give it a chance.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Precisely.
According to these standards, the military should be scrapped immediately.
According to these standards, the military should be scrapped immediately.
KnightTemplar
Active member
First, my arguments were about social programs, not socialized programs, there is a big difference and I am not in any way stating that all of the programs I mentioned were socialist programs. What I am saying is that no has ever stayed within budget and without serious tax increases. Speaking of that, I hope all those that think this health care thing will be so great are ready to see income tax rates at the 40% to 50% marks.
Average tax rates per country (Single, no kids)
Austria - 47.4%
Belgium - 55.4%
Denmark - 41.4%
Finland - 44.6%
France - 50.1%
Germany - 51.8%
Hungry - 50.5%
Sweden - 47.9%
U.S. - 29.1%
At the top of the list are many European countries (the ones Obama wants to model the U.S. after) that impose the biggest tax burdens on families, but in most of those countries families get added social services, such as secure pensions and health care. In 2003, total federal state and local taxes in the United States were 24.2% of our gross domestic product, ranking among the lowest in the world, with only Mexico at 19.5% with a lower tax rate. Along with the higher taxes, the difference between the U.S. and some of the other industrialized countries are, again, increased social services, such as pensions and health-care funding.
Regardless of that, there are quite a few democrats that actually believe your statement so be careful what you say and where you say it.
On a related note, I find it interesting that the insurance companies are immoral, greedy and corrupt (all in all Satan in corporate form) according to most of the liberals I talk to but these same liberals are the ones praising a bill making it illegal not to purchase services from said corporate Satan.
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Rob Henderson
Banned
So Americans could stand some higher tax rates. Thanks for pointing that out.
What I don't understand is why you posted the rates for single and no children, then harped on about families. Where are the tax rates for married with children?In case you haven't noticed, President Obama has been perfectly capable of shaking things up in the White House and Congress. Who's to say he won't reform the programs you listed in your previous post? Socialized programs WORK, as long as they are managed. As you stated, most of the time they don't work because a little money is thrown at them, and by the time they can really get going, we have a president associated with a new party who doesn't like the program, and refuses to give any legitimate attention to it.
Yes, the insurance companies are immoral, greedy, and corrupt. By making them more affordable, more accountable, and more "susceptible" to the people, we are making them LESS immoral, LESS greedy, and LESS corrupt.
rattler
Active member
I have the feeling some brain washing has been going on here, having lived both many years (and paid taxes) in Germany and Spain I can tell you your numbers are wrong at least for Germany:
- Germany, from 5-45% depening on income and family status, I earned a solid 60.000 a year and paid 29% income tax while single, after being married this dropped to 23% while making 80k. Corporate taxes were also in steady decline and are at 30% since 2007. Wikipedia has similar numbers, for 2008: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany
- Spain: Depending on your income you pay between 24% and 43% if you file, as a normal worker with average income (22.000+ Euros) you do not have to file for it and pay around a total of 6% as deduction. The higher tax rates are compensated by various allowances (6k per person, then progressively rising allowances per kid, starting at roughly 2k for the first and maxing out at 6k per kid when having 4+), exact numbers for 2008 here: http://news.live.kyero.com/2008/2/14/spanish-income-tax-rates-for-2008/
Skandinaviaaa has real high taxes, as you point out, but they are compensated by all kinds of services you have a right to that we do not have in the central and southern European nations.
I think that in the US you will see an even better economy, once the one half of private bankrupcies that are induced through unpaid medical bills become eliminated: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/
Rattler
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yeah.
But now that the thing has passed, I wonder just what sort of change it will bring.
Hmmm...
But now that the thing has passed, I wonder just what sort of change it will bring.
Hmmm...
senojekips
Active member
Australia's MediCare costs 1.25% of your taxable income.
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
There's enough evidence abroad to suggest that it is not an issue of possibility, but an issue of competence.
Rob Henderson
Banned
It's unfortunate that no president really has had the chance to see his or her changes through to the very end. They always seem to lose control right at that pivotal point when it might start working.
Here's a link to one source- http://capwiz.com/gunowners/issues/votes/?votenum=165&chamber=H&congress=1112
Rob, I wish kids like you would do your homework for once. There are so many things wrong with this bill, like how at first there is not problem with pre-existing health issues. After four years, anyone with anything pre-existing will not have any medical coverage. Hitler did that kind of ****- kill off the ill, infirm and elderly and save it for the younger generation. But then, after the younger get older, well, look at pre-WW2 Germany.
Rob, I wish kids like you would do your homework for once. There are so many things wrong with this bill, like how at first there is not problem with pre-existing health issues. After four years, anyone with anything pre-existing will not have any medical coverage. Hitler did that kind of ****- kill off the ill, infirm and elderly and save it for the younger generation. But then, after the younger get older, well, look at pre-WW2 Germany.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
Promises, promises, promises .....
Promises, promises, promises .....
I guess this is just one more promise the Republican's have broken ... ah well ... I guess we can only hope the Democrats will keep their promises more often than the Republicans have done recently.
BTW - Rush was on the air today and hasn't announced any concrete plans to leave the country ..... guess his mouth is bigger than his promises, honesty or his word.
Promises, promises, promises .....
How about the statement that John Boener made to CNN's Wolf Blitzer last Sunday???
Have you read or heard anything that would lead you to believe that even one Republican committed suicide since the Health Care Bill was passed????
I guess this is just one more promise the Republican's have broken ... ah well ... I guess we can only hope the Democrats will keep their promises more often than the Republicans have done recently.
BTW - Rush was on the air today and hasn't announced any concrete plans to leave the country ..... guess his mouth is bigger than his promises, honesty or his word.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Unfortunately even that would be an improvement over what we have now.
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