Heckler & Koch 416 - How would You Rate it?

The US personel that got to play with it liked it for the most part.
Cost made it go away.


KJ sends...
 
KJ said:
The US personel that got to play with it liked it for the most part.
Cost made it go away.


KJ sends...
Click to expand...

OK. So Uncle Sam didn't like the price tag. But if you were planning an operation, like for black ops, you think it would be a choice pick?
 
Abbadon2012 said:
I've heard some good things about this weapon. Better reliability than the M4/M16, for instance.

Can the resident gunheads chime in on this?

http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk416_specs.asp
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Carried it, used it, don't like it.....

It's from H&K and it sucks in typical H&K fashion. They have managed to take a very simple thing and screwed it up. The Magwell is a different size and will not use Magpul Pmags, the piston system is a transplant from the H&K G36 system which isn't the most promising rifle out there. They took the Armalite AR-18 and threw it in plastic after the Cold War ended the the West German Republic took over East Germany. The G36 failed as a commercial product and they took the innards of that and placed it in a M4 Carbine.

H&K real gem of a rifle was the H&K G41 but it was priced a $1000 back in the late 1980s and that was some serious cash back then.

g41ea20la.jpg


61100.jpg


I have it's older brother.... the HK33.

C93.jpg
 
This is the first negative feedback I've heard for the 416. What sort of weapon would you recommend, then, in the same class?
 
Abbadon2012 said:
This is the first negative feedback I've heard for the 416. What sort of weapon would you recommend, then, in the same class?
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Any quality production Direct Impingement AR-15 carbine. The rifle and system has worked fine for the last fifty years and direct impingement has worked longer then that with other designs.
 
I like it in all ways. Have never used it operationally but those who had, praised this rifle.

The old G3 has always been one of my favorite weapons and when we train jungle warfare we always have one with us.
 
Abbadon2012 said:
OK. So Uncle Sam didn't like the price tag. But if you were planning an operation, like for black ops, you think it would be a choice pick?
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For Black ops?
Do you mean the videogame?

Kid..
Lets set one fact straight.. You do not choose your ordonance after the color some novelist has put on your operation.
IF you have your choice of weaponry, wich very few have it simply comes down to a few simple factors.

1. What are you comfortable with that will work in the enviroment you are going into.

2. What firepower do your Team need?
---------------------------------------
THEN you look at the different extras..
Are you going to carry it around or do you forsee a mainly stationary post?
How long are you out, do you need batteries that you will have to carry that may run out?
How can you scale down on weight?
How can you scale down on the drawbacks for each individual terrain?
Should the missionplan go tits up, what type of terrain is there a possibility of you ending up in.
What are the criterias your weapon needs to fill there?
Plus half a dozen or so more factors..

You mash it all together and you find the best compromise you can for you and for your Team.



As for the HK 416.
I find it to be an excellent weapon that will keep working in some of the more harsh enviroments where the M-16/M-4 family of weapons will perform piss poor..
Everything is rugged and large enough to operate with gloves on.
As everything else it comes down to what you are used to and the above list of factors.

FWIW The G36C, G36K, and G36KE are used to this date by several SF units across the world.

KJ sends..
 
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KJ said:
Kid..
Lets set one fact straight.. You do not choose your ordonance after the color some novelist has put on your operation.
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Well, that's why I consult with those who know their stuff. I don't want to half-ass it. And I appreciate your candor.

The query is connected to my writing...

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/my-novel-wolf-company-t95343.html#post622113

OK...My team is small -- 5 men -- in the Phillipines, in and around Basilan Island. Tropical forest/jungle, and some mountain terrain. First up is recon, which may take a week or more. Ultimately, it will end up with a hostage rescue.

I've already got insertion/extraction/resupply worked out.

Resistance won't be more than sqaud level. Maybe 8 - 10 at most, with light weapons.


I'm perfectly willing to adjust detials to make it more plausible. I defer to the wisdom of those who know more than me.8-)
 
Abbadon2012 said:
I've heard some good things about this weapon. Better reliability than the M4/M16, for instance.

Can the resident gunheads chime in on this?

http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/hk416_specs.asp
Click to expand...

WAY overpriced...and it annoys me when manufacturers modify a standard platform just enough that it essentially becomes propriatary. No need to restate what others have stated. If you like piston guns, my brother-in-law picked up a Ruger SR-556 that groups well and is ultra-reliable. I prefer direct impingement myself, but it's what i know best and am most familiar with.
 
MrCatch22 said:
WAY overpriced...and it annoys me when manufacturers modify a standard platform just enough that it essentially becomes propriatary. No need to restate what others have stated. If you like piston guns, my brother-in-law picked up a Ruger SR-556 that groups well and is ultra-reliable. I prefer direct impingement myself, but it's what i know best and am most familiar with.
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Suffers from Bolt Carrier Tilt... along with the HK416...

What's bolt carrier tilt? It's physics. The op rod doesn't hit the center of the carrier, it hits the top. So when the op-rod hits the top of the carrier it pushes the rear of the carrier downwards. Evidence of carrier tilt is wear on the top front of the upper and the bottom of the receiver tube where the BCG enters it.

It doesn't happen with DGI because the gas enters the BCG through the gas key and then enters a cavity in the carrier (sealed by the gas rings on the bolt). The cavity is centered over the bore so there is no carrier tilt.

Stuff like this happens with carrier tilt:

tilt1.jpg


100_0265.jpg


Why is there tilt? There is tilt because Gas Piston AR's do not have a carrier key that is a gas tube like on DGI. On a DGI, the gas pushes the bolt carrier back with pressure on the carrier key. The carrier key of a GP is a solid so the piston has something to strike to move the BCG. Since the piston is striking the BCG from the top and off axis (off-center), it causes the BCG to enter the buffer tube at a downward angle. DGI does not have carrier tilt because as the gas enters the bolt carrier key, it is bled off and the BCG enter's the buffer tube straight in. GP piston action strikes the carrier like a hammer, therefore causing tilt.

Why is it a problem? Because the BCG is tearing up the buffer tube and the rear of the receiver (the threaded area that the buffer tube screws into).

Another problem with GP-AR's is they cause the gas key screws (screws that hold the bolt carrier key) to also work harder. Keys have been known to come loose and even break on rifles. Many companies do not stake keys on the bolt carrier properly and even if they did, the stakes will not stop the keys from breaking some companies have moved to the one-peice carrier Ruger's rifle. But that still doesn't solve bolt carrier tilt.

The HK416, Ruger SR-556, and every other gas piston operated AR-15 is a answer to a problem that never existed.

As for them being cleaner..... the only difference is the location of the carbon buildup. With a DGI, the bolt carrier is the piston and the carbon is deposited in the chamber area.... which is actually a very large area. With a GP, the gas deposits the carbon forward of the bolt carrier in the gas block where the pistol head is.... guess what? You still need to clean that area to prevent the piston from seizing and since it is a much smaller area you need to clean it more. The only way to make a GP rifle more reliable is to have an adjustable gas system like a FN FAL. That only works simply because you are allowing more gas pressure to go through a dirty system thus allowing a seized piston to be pushed free by the gas pressure. But guess what? It's still gonna seize up at some point.
 
5.56X45mm said:
Suffers from Bolt Carrier Tilt... along with the HK416...

Why is there tilt? There is tilt because Gas Piston AR's do not have a carrier key that is a gas tube like on DGI. On a DGI, the gas pushes the bolt carrier back with pressure on the carrier key. The carrier key of a GP is a solid so the piston has something to strike to move the BCG. Since the piston is striking the BCG from the top and off axis (off-center), it causes the BCG to enter the buffer tube at a downward angle. DGI does not have carrier tilt because as the gas enters the bolt carrier key, it is bled off and the BCG enter's the buffer tube straight in. GP piston action strikes the carrier like a hammer, therefore causing tilt.

Why is it a problem? Because the BCG is tearing up the buffer tube and the rear of the receiver (the threaded area that the buffer tube screws into).

Another problem with GP-AR's is they cause the gas key screws (screws that hold the bolt carrier key) to also work harder. Keys have been known to come loose and even break on rifles. Many companies do not stake keys on the bolt carrier properly and even if they did, the stakes will not stop the keys from breaking some companies have moved to the one-peice carrier Ruger's rifle. But that still doesn't solve bolt carrier tilt.

The HK416, Ruger SR-556, and every other gas piston operated AR-15 is a answer to a problem that never existed.

As for them being cleaner..... the only difference is the location of the carbon buildup. With a DGI, the bolt carrier is the piston and the carbon is deposited in the chamber area.... which is actually a very large area. With a GP, the gas deposits the carbon forward of the bolt carrier in the gas block where the pistol head is.... guess what? You still need to clean that area to prevent the piston from seizing and since it is a much smaller area you need to clean it more. The only way to make a GP rifle more reliable is to have an adjustable gas system like a FN FAL. That only works simply because you are allowing more gas pressure to go through a dirty system thus allowing a seized piston to be pushed free by the gas pressure. But guess what? It's still gonna seize up at some point.
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Agree with all. Like I said, I prefer impingement. I also get why some favor piston guns, though. The Ruger I mention has 4 gas settings. I think the big thing is that most people will put 2k rounds through their weapons in a lifetime, and don't wanna spend hours maintaining the dreaded star chamber. To the average shooter, tilt is an unknown, abd they don't shoot enough for any non-superficial issues to develop. Just my 2 cents.
 
The Ruger SR-556 is a sexy beast. I'll study that some more, and see if it's a good alternative to the 416.

Thanks to all the gunheads for your input.:rambo:
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
So the Ruger is an AR-15 configuration? Does it have the 6.8 too?
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I know Ruger planned on a 6.8mm SPC version at some point, but I don't konw if they released it. Was just talking to my neighbor today about getting into reloading. I think that's the only way I could get into 6.8…you're looking at .75-1.00 a round…for the cheap stuff :( Great round though.
 
MrCatch22 said:
I know Ruger planned on a 6.8mm SPC version at some point, but I don't konw if they released it. Was just talking to my neighbor today about getting into reloading. I think that's the only way I could get into 6.8…you're looking at .75-1.00 a round…for the cheap stuff :( Great round though.
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I like the 6.8mm SPC, so if I lived in the US and in one of the states that allow some interesting toys, I would perhaps go for the Barrett REC 7. When I was in the service, we had the Swedish version of the German G3, nice cal on that one 7.62x51, a bit clumsy weapon though, so when I experienced the 5.56, it felt like a toy so the 6.8 must be somewhere between. What weapons do have the 6.8mm SPC?
 
Many companies sell conversion kits for ar's and ak's but i know that the bushmaster acr, barrett rrec7, lwrc m6 series, and probably a couple others that i can't remember come in the 6.8
 
Ruger released the SR-556 and Mini-14 in 6.8SPC but the cartridge is dead. SF units aren't even playing with it anymore. The two non-5.56x45mm cartridges are the 6.5 Grendal and the .300BLK. But even them those are two very small niche cartridges.

5.56x45mm is doing well and is here to stay.
 
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