Evidence ignored, German man detained (AP)

[News Manager]

AP - A German man was detained as a suspected terrorist at Guantanamo Bay for four years despite findings by U.S. investigators that he had no link to al-Qaida, newly released documents say.

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[A Can of Man]

It's funny how they say "German man," or "Briton," when referring to immigrants with questionable loyalties to the countries they hold passports of.
But either way you shouldn't detain people like this. What a disaster.

 

[Del Boy]

Well - a lot if it is to do with playing safe under threat of extreme danger to the world, and of course is related to the circumstances, geographically etc., of their apprehension. Wrong place - wrong time?? Not usually, I would suggest. In a world at war, better safe than sorry, it seems to me.
Worse things happen at sea, and these guys have been collected up in sweeps of the most significantly dangerous threats to our safety.

 

[senojekips]

The man is known to be innocent by their own admission for God's sake. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute, and you'd be rightfully screaming your tits off, but that's not an option so long as you are kept incommunicado.

From the available evidence, I'd say it is probably more like a great desire to hide the truth of another "monumental stuffup" from the world.

I'm afraid, that as much as I support the war on terror, the whole Guantanamo business, coupled with extraordinary rendition has left me decidedly underwhelmed.

 

[A Can of Man]

Like I said, he shouldn't have been detained.
This Guantanamo business needs to be straightened away as soon as possible by forces from WITHIN the military and government because it'll do a lot less damage if done this way. And those innocent who were held should be compensated handsomely... and we must know that even this may not be enough, but it's the best we can do.

 

[MontyB]

Like I said, he shouldn't have been detained.
This Guantanamo business needs to be straightened away as soon as possible by forces from WITHIN the military and government because it'll do a lot less damage if done this way. And those innocent who were held should be compensated handsomely... and we must know that even this may not be enough, but it's the best we can do.

Agreed but I think most people are just biding their time until the current US admin has left office, I certainly wouldn't expect changes for another 12 months or so as no one can be bothered dealing with the intransigence of the current lot.

Well - a lot if it is to do with playing safe under threat of extreme danger to the world, and of course is related to the circumstances, geographically etc., of their apprehension. Wrong place - wrong time?? Not usually, I would suggest. In a world at war, better safe than sorry, it seems to me.
Worse things happen at sea, and these guys have been collected up in sweeps of the most significantly dangerous threats to our safety.

I don't know why but just bring out the quoter in me so I think I will use this one today:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
- Benjamin Franklin.

 

[A Can of Man]

The quote's a bit misleading though. Because every society has to a degree given up a little liberty for some security. Or else we wouldn't have laws now would we?

 

[MontyB]

The quote's a bit misleading though. Because every society has to a degree given up a little liberty for some security. Or else we wouldn't have laws now would we?

Very true but the impression I get from DB's posts are that anything is acceptable for security hence the use of that particular quote.

 

[Gator]

The Federal Government here has had the bite at the apple, and failed to deliver, so, all should be cut lose.
If they had broken any laws they would already be charged and tired, they are by the Federal Governments own admission not POWs, so they cannot be held as if they were.
If they are criminals then they would, after these many years, already been disposed of as criminals and placed into the Federal Penal System.

Unless one feels that drastic times do indeed call for drastic measures, but then I noticed that there was a shooting at a mall here in the United States, drastic times indeed, so, using the same logic of keeping people safe at all costs, the Constitution here would need to be changed, and all Firearms need to be removed from the Civilian Population, in order to keep the General Population safe from those who would use a Firearm to Terrorize the Population at large.

I find it strange though that many who would like to keep Firearms are the same people who say that other Freedoms need to be given up while fighting the War on Terror.

 

[A Can of Man]

I remember a quote from the mountain warfare school.
It went something like this. "We haven't had anyone die here at our mountain warfare school. But we've had a few who got maimed. Now this is bad because if you get maimed your families will continue to attempt to sue the Corps and we have to make changes to the training or lose a lot of money. When I was a Parachute instructor, we didn't have many maimed people. We just had the occasional fatality. Fatalities are a lot cleaner. There will be a funeral, some crying for about two weeks, but then that's it. It's over. Pay attention, don't get maimed."
Either shoot the guy or let him go if you don't have any grounds for jailing him.
The problem with prisoners is that they talk. Somewhere along the line it gets hard to tell which guy was really picked off the street for no reason and which guy was found with a remote detonator in his hand. See a guy with a remote detonator? Shoot first.

 

[mmarsh]

I hate to say it, but I think more detainees at Gitmo are of the above. I read from 'somewhere' that only 25% are considered the hardcore al-Qaeda types, the rest are 'of interest', meaning they the Government isn't exactly sure. Its been 6 years since 9-11 its time to charge these people or release them.

This indifinate incarceration without charge is not Democratic, not legal, and not American. -We are not like some of the barbarians in the Middle East.

 

[A Can of Man]

Hey, having them at Gitmo is far more humanitarian than an Indonesian police station. You have to sink REAL REAL deep before you reach the "barbarians in the Middle East" level.
Either way, the Gitmo thing is still wrong.

 

[Del Boy]

Very true but the impression I get from DB's posts are that anything is acceptable for security hence the use of that particular quote.

Naughty, naughty. Common-sense and sound defence have to be used, and these are the issues we face. If your country ever becomes the victim of these religious fanatics, bombing you, murdering you, threatening you, on a daily basis, determined to take as many lives of men, women and children as possible, we would hear a different sermon from you. You would want all likely candidates under lock and key, banged up as soon as possible, and for as long as is necessary. The latest releases are not heading for your country with no way of ridding yourselves of them, even though they are not citizens of yours.

It is so easy to spout from your comfortable position so please try to engage the old brain - box before jumping to your own conclusions re. my take on freedom.

My mission in these trying times is to protect freedoms - real freedoms, like the ones to live, to breathe, to peace, to choose my religion ,or none at all, to graze my world without threat. Those who would deny me this are my enemies - I recognise this, I refuse to sweep it under the carpet, and those who carelessly support my enemies are no friends of freedom, believe me.

---------------------------------------------------

Give me liberty or give me death.

 

[MontyB]

Yes well it's hard to argue with low expectations I guess.

My mission in these trying times is to protect freedoms - real freedoms, like the ones to live, to breathe, to peace, to choose my religion ,or none at all, to graze my world without threat. Those who would deny me this are my enemies - I recognise this, I refuse to sweep it under the carpet, and those who carelessly support my enemies are no friends of freedom, believe me.

How about justice does that play a role in the freedoms you would like to preserve or is that on the sacrificial block as well?

Maybe this little gem will ring a bell?
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
- Thomas Jefferson.

If your country ever becomes the victim of these religious fanatics, bombing you, murdering you, threatening you, on a daily basis, determined to take as many lives of men, women and children as possible, we would hear a different sermon from you.

You are partially correct however I would be appalled if I found my government to have locked up people for years while in possession of evidence that said they were not guilty.

As I alluded to earlier I believe that my (read as a generic "my") way of life is worth preserving and improving upon I also believe this to be more than just sucking in oxygen and being allowed to go to whatever churches the government sees fit for me to attend.

The funny thing in all this is probably your finishing quote "Give me liberty or give me death" I would strongly suggest that you go and read Patrick Henry's speech to which that comment is attributed as I believe you would discover it to be at odds with your stance on this matter.

 

[Del Boy]

'Yes well it's hard to argue with low expectations I guess.'


Then raise your expectations.

------------------------------------


quote
'How about justice does that play a role in the freedoms you would like to preserve or is that on the sacrificial block as well?'



Justice is a two-edged sword. It needs wielding carefully and with discrimination.


--------------------------------------------

quote.
'Maybe this little gem will ring a bell?
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
- Thomas Jefferson.'


Exactly - and tyranny is what we opposing in restraining the most dangerous enemies we have ever faced.


----------------------------------------------



quote
'You are partially correct however I would be appalled if I found my government to have locked up people for years while in possession of evidence that said they were not guilty.'



Perhaps your government also was aware of a great deal that you were not and wished to ensure the safety of you and yours from the most dangerous enemy ever faced? What if they released these monsters to cause havoc, through taking chances with the safety of you and yours.


----------------------------------------------------------


quote
'As I alluded to earlier I believe that my (read as a generic "my") way of life is worth preserving and improving upon I also believe this to be more than just sucking in oxygen and being allowed to go to whatever churches the government sees fit for me to attend.'


Oh. this your interpretation of Living, breathing, having peace, freedom to choose one's religion ,or none at all , grazing the world without threat is it??.
What a pathetic travesty of what I said ; could only have been written by a prat.

---------------------------------------

quote
'The funny thing in all this is probably your finishing quote "Give me liberty or give me death" I would strongly suggest that you go and read Patrick Henry's speech to which that comment is attributed as I believe you would discover it to be at odds with your stance on this matter.'

What a pompous ass you are, to be sure; I often use this signature and you are the last person qualified to point me towards Patrick Henry,
and claim him for yourself. Obviously you have crept back to your Wicki to find something to attack.

Don't promote yourself ahead of me on the score of the search for true justice and freedom. I doubt you have been touched by much of relevance to its preservation.


-----------------------------------------


GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.

 

[MontyB]

Haha.
Is that the best you have, reversing someones comments and claiming them as your own then throwing your toys out of the cot when called on to validate your argument?

For the record its Wiki, no "c" and just to rub it in some more I don't need the internet to tell me who the great figures in history were, but I am sure you can overlook education as a means of learning as we all know an education is the root of all evil to reactionaries, dumb and compliant is the way to be.

 

[Del Boy]

Haha.
Is that the best you have, reversing someones comments and claiming them as your own then throwing your toys out of the cot when called on to validate your argument?

For the record its Wiki, no "c" and just to rub it in some more I don't need the internet to tell me who the great figures in history were, but I am sure you can overlook education as a means of learning as we all know an education is the root of all evil to reactionaries, dumb and compliant is the way to be.

Ah yes - now the reverting to crude insult to cover a lack of genuine response. That 'haha' sounds all kinda strangled; your mouth is curled up but your eyes are not laughing! I checked my last post - seems to me I carefully responded to each of your comments - too much detail for you to handle?

Funny - I don't recall throwing any toys out of any cot. Why would I do any such thing? Are you suggesting that you are in any way capable of ruffling my feathers? That would take a lot more than you ever have to offer. As I seldom refer to wikipedia I would not be familiar with the spelling, but I suppose when you have to refer daily to enable confrontation of any subject, well ...........

Glad to hear your education is straight out of the big W. I, on the other hand, had proper education in all aspects, including politics but I find it sad to hear that you consider education to be the root of all evil. Never mind, you'll lose that attitude when you grow up.


Do the pompous and patronising wish to take their hypocracy to another level? Try again.

 

[MontyB]

Its clearly a pity reading comprehension wasn't included in that "proper education" of yours, however I am now considering moving to Hookers Lane as it would appear you believe living on a street named after something or one makes you an expert on the matter.

So as with 99% of our "discussions" its time to give you the last parting shot and say this will be my last response to you on this matter although given your predisposition to argue off topic constantly I am not sure we were ever on topic, so please rehash my statements, claim them as your own and lets end yet another waste of Redlegs banswidth.

 

[Gator]

Either shoot the guy or let him go if you don't have any grounds for jailing him.

Dead men tell no tales, which could be a good thing, or a bad thing, if Intel is needed.

If they are bad people they need to be charged, tried, and put away, or better yet shot as Spies if they are in the USA, or left to other Nations to cut off thier heads if they are outside the USA.

Saying they are not POWs, and then drawing a comparison between World War II POWs and todays people held at Gitmo, well, the White House cannot have it both ways.

 

[Del Boy]

Its clearly a pity reading comprehension wasn't included in that "proper education" of yours, however I am now considering moving to Hookers Lane as it would appear you believe living on a street named after something or one makes you an expert on the matter.

So as with 99% of our "discussions" its time to give you the last parting shot and say this will be my last response to you on this matter although given your predisposition to argue off topic constantly I am not sure we were ever on topic, so please rehash my statements, claim them as your own and lets end yet another waste of Redlegs banswidth.

What a complete load of old cobblers - but absolutely typical of you when you run out of argument. I cannot see where I have claimed to be an expert on anything other than myself. I assure you that nothing you have ever said has been of the slightest use to me in any way, and your talking -down attitude leaves me cold. As Kunikov so correctly points out today, you are simply a name caller and label-pinner, but one with a complete lack of direction. I recognise your slipping swiftly away when you do not easily get your own way, and so many of your 'discussions'? end this way.

Incidently, interesting that - you being an expert on hookers. Not really something to boast about old chap. Comprehend that.