Effectiveness of German anti Aircraft Fire
perseus
Active member
Thanks for that Verdana. It's good to see a query specifically answered and referenced, even though we have drifted from issues in the original OP somewhat.
perseus
Active member
Yes this is often overlooked, especially by the Russians. So is the extra materiel which would have been produced without the air raids. The dispersion alone must have reduced production relative to what it would have been (a point missed when comparing production figures from one year to the next) and this made the subsequent attacks on the transportation infrastructure decisive. That said I think Harris could have used his bombers more wisely.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Oddly enough that isn't the conclusion that US Strategic Command studies came to just after the war, they concluded that the forced dispersion of German industries made it impossible to do major damage to German industries and as such actually aided the German war effort and cost allied lives.
They were extremely critical of the bomber war.
% of Aluminum used for German was indusry
On the planes salvaged, not all the material or even most of it was recoverable. Their mission height was 27,000 to 30,000 feet. In the case of 154 tons being salvaged this is not surprising considering > 4150 B-17 went down over the Reich along with 3250 Arvo Lanchesters. It would be interesting to see this figure compared to the total wartime Aluminum alloy used by the Reich in WW2, (much of which came from Norway)?
An interesting footnote: The B-17’s delivered 640,000 tons of bombs on the Reich while the Arvo Lancasters delivered> 610,000 tons of bombs. So a total of 1.250 million tons of bombs were dropped on the Reich. This did in effect galvanize the German people in much the same way the Blitz galvanized the British, however the value of the terror bombing is questionable as some considered Bomber Harris the only real allied war criminal. As mentioned earlier some industrial setbacks did occur as a result of the bombing, however as Monty mentioned the Germans were quick to move to a cottage industry system that made it a bit harder to target industry. The bombers had a large contribution in the destroying of the Luftwaffe runways and airbases and German communications centers particularly with the approach of D-Day.
On the planes salvaged, not all the material or even most of it was recoverable. Their mission height was 27,000 to 30,000 feet. In the case of 154 tons being salvaged this is not surprising considering > 4150 B-17 went down over the Reich along with 3250 Arvo Lanchesters. It would be interesting to see this figure compared to the total wartime Aluminum alloy used by the Reich in WW2, (much of which came from Norway)?
An interesting footnote: The B-17’s delivered 640,000 tons of bombs on the Reich while the Arvo Lancasters delivered> 610,000 tons of bombs. So a total of 1.250 million tons of bombs were dropped on the Reich. This did in effect galvanize the German people in much the same way the Blitz galvanized the British, however the value of the terror bombing is questionable as some considered Bomber Harris the only real allied war criminal. As mentioned earlier some industrial setbacks did occur as a result of the bombing, however as Monty mentioned the Germans were quick to move to a cottage industry system that made it a bit harder to target industry. The bombers had a large contribution in the destroying of the Luftwaffe runways and airbases and German communications centers particularly with the approach of D-Day.
perseus
Active member
The bombing of the synthetic oil plants and possibly the transport system would have been decisive if the ground war had dragged on. Certainly decisive in the sense that it prevented any successful large scale counter offensive since this requires large supplies of fuel and unbroken rail links. In effect Germany was defeated twice over, once by the gradual attrition of ground forces, and secondly by the removal of the means to move large numbers of troops and materiel from one place to another.
LeEnfield
Active member
When the RAF wiped out the V! and V2 plants on the Baltic they were immediately moved to safer areas. Germany like Britain had many little workshops through out all the cities which added to the war effort. Now area bombing caused a major effort by the Germans to keep there towns operating with fuel and water and every effort in this took away people from the war effort.
I agree we had a good tread on this topic some time back.
The consensus was that after losing the battle of Moscow which forced the Osteer (German Army in the east) into a war of attrition and Hitler's simultaneously declaring war on the US in Dec 41 Germany was brought into a conflict with the world's 2 largest economies.
This virtually doomed the Reich which despite often having superior: tactics, weapons and soldiery could not hope to compete against the sheer weight in number and machines.
perseus
Active member
There were other aircraft of course. The figure for the US looks right but the RAF dropped almost a million tons on Germany. THE US was also active in other European theater's so they ended up dropping slightly more than the RAF by the end of the war.
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I was quoting the figures for just the Avro Lancaster and B-17. I forgot you are right the British had over a dozen planes used in the Bomber role in WW2 with the Arvo Lancaster being the most widely used of these.
Considering these bombs fell for the most part on population and industry centers that's a lot of damage. My father in law served in Germany during - after WW2 and said it looked like it had been bombed to the stone age.
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
The B24 was a very effective aircraft used on RAF maritime operations with its extremely long range. A very good aeroplane.
The mainstay of RAF Bomber Command operations in Europe was the Lancaster, Halifax, Vickers Wellington, while the Mosquito (along with the Lancaster) was used as pathfinders. The Mosquito was also used on other operations such as the Operation Jericho (among others). Other less effective types were used earlier on in the war and suffered a very high casualty rate.
Only 27% of RAF bomber crews survived a tour of operations.
55% killed on operations or died as result of wounds
3% injured (in varying levels of severity) on operations or active service
12% taken prisoner of war (some injured)
2% shot down and evaded capture
Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC CO of 617 Dambuster Squadron carried out something like 147 operations into Germany before being killed in action. A very brave and excellent pilot but a very arrogant man whom at times verbally abused his crew.
The mainstay of RAF Bomber Command operations in Europe was the Lancaster, Halifax, Vickers Wellington, while the Mosquito (along with the Lancaster) was used as pathfinders. The Mosquito was also used on other operations such as the Operation Jericho (among others). Other less effective types were used earlier on in the war and suffered a very high casualty rate.
Only 27% of RAF bomber crews survived a tour of operations.
55% killed on operations or died as result of wounds
3% injured (in varying levels of severity) on operations or active service
12% taken prisoner of war (some injured)
2% shot down and evaded capture
Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC CO of 617 Dambuster Squadron carried out something like 147 operations into Germany before being killed in action. A very brave and excellent pilot but a very arrogant man whom at times verbally abused his crew.
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If only 27 % survived (died in bomber operations), then how can only 55 % have been killed. Likely I'm missing the obvious?
Another interesting fact. Most downed allied pilot received rather good care in Luftwaffe run POW camps. However the few unlucky enough to be captured by the Gestapo were generally tortured and often executed. The Luftwaffe complained but since they were separate agencies nothing was done.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Yes you are missing the obvious, I suspect it is a break down of total war time personnel...
27% Survived unscathed
55% KIA
12% POW
3% Injured
2% MIA (on the loose in occupied Europe or interned)
Total = 99% accounted for.
I assume the missing 1% are lost in the rounding process.
I am not sure I believe the numbers as 3% injured seems rather low but it does all add up to 100ish.
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perseus
Active member
Good for maritime use but less so against aerial opposition due to the exposed tank on the top. If I had to make a choice it would be the Fortress, and even then not in daylight without fighter support!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_B-24_Liberator
I'm just reading about the near suicidal first raid by the RAF on German ships near the coast and rivers. The Luftwaffe were slow to intervene because they dismissed the radar operators reports (shades of Pearl Harbour?). They couldn't believe anyone would be so stupid to attack in a cloudless sky! The Luftwaffe were also kept away by their own flak initially. They were also baffled why many of the aircraft didn't drop any bombs. Evidently it was because they were frightened of bombing the land! (I kid you not).
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Kesse81
Banned
Actually, only four was operated.
They were not used very much, as the Germans found that their nose wheel configuration was unsuitable for operations from grass runways.
And then KG 200 was not involved in the testing and evaluation of foreign aircraft.
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But apparently good enough to use salvaged ones on the JU-287 Bomber prototypes.....
On early RAF B-17 missions the planes suffered from stuck bomb bay doors. Mechanics couldn't replicate the problem back at Base. Eventually a Boing engineer flew on a Mission and figured out what the problem was. The crews were peeing in the bomb bay and the ice was causing the problem. Bthe time the mechanics checked the plane the ice was gone.
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