BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Trying to debate with this clown samneanderthal is like flogging a dead horse.
Churchill's rage over the loss of Singapore
samneanderthal
Active member
Strange again that the German navy would make better use of seaplanes, which the British had perfected for long range flights and large capacity.
The Hurricane was more than able to take off from a carrier with a moderate load (even the B-25s took off with a ton of bombs, lots of fuel and a full crew took off from a carrier).
After a carrier launches its Hurricanes you can always transfer to it the crates and assemble 5 or more Hurricanes simultaneously every 2 days. Of course you have to guard it from the KM and LW.
Like you said, the frozen lakes were used when possible (as did 263 until its planes were wiped out).
Since the Germans have to fly several hundred miles to Narvik (which they took with a few destroyers, thanks to brilliant Churchillian planning) then their bomb loads were limited and they were quite vulnerable to fighters during the long flight (Bf-109s could not protect them, only clumsy Bf-110s which are ideal prey for Hurricanes).
By the way, the Polish destroyer Grom that you mentioned was very fast, 39 knots. It was sunk when a bomb from a plane hit close to a torpedo, but I haven't been able to find what kind of plane and bomb.
It does seem like a waste that after wiping out the German navy in the Narvik area at great cost, the port would be abandoned to the Germans.
The Hurricane was more than able to take off from a carrier with a moderate load (even the B-25s took off with a ton of bombs, lots of fuel and a full crew took off from a carrier).
After a carrier launches its Hurricanes you can always transfer to it the crates and assemble 5 or more Hurricanes simultaneously every 2 days. Of course you have to guard it from the KM and LW.
Like you said, the frozen lakes were used when possible (as did 263 until its planes were wiped out).
Since the Germans have to fly several hundred miles to Narvik (which they took with a few destroyers, thanks to brilliant Churchillian planning) then their bomb loads were limited and they were quite vulnerable to fighters during the long flight (Bf-109s could not protect them, only clumsy Bf-110s which are ideal prey for Hurricanes).
By the way, the Polish destroyer Grom that you mentioned was very fast, 39 knots. It was sunk when a bomb from a plane hit close to a torpedo, but I haven't been able to find what kind of plane and bomb.
It does seem like a waste that after wiping out the German navy in the Narvik area at great cost, the port would be abandoned to the Germans.
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84RFK
Active member
Except for the number of Walrus employed on the Narvik front I suppose the long range flyingboats was desperately needed to keep an eye on the German uboats.
Again, the distance and lack of proper harbours made it difficult to deploy anything else than the Walrus, as they were ferried accross on carriers and other ships.
The Hurricanes was never indeded to take off form the deck of the carriers, they were loaded aboard with a crane, and they were supposed to be loaded off in the same manner.
They only managed to get in the air because the carriers was ran full speed towards the wind.
You seem to forget that both the HMS Glorious and the HMS Furious was in fact modified battlecruisers of WW I vintage...
The lack of arresting hook on the Hurricanes made it a dangerous task to try a landing on the deck of the carriers, it was acomplished by loading the tail down with extra weight and apply full brakes the moment the wheels touched deck.
The idea of transfering crates containing dismanteled airplanes from a cargo ship to a carrier, even in the relatively shielded environment of a fjord....you haven't seen that place!
While the Luftwaffe had to negotiate a longer distance, they had the oportunity to take off from regular air-fields and not a swampy dirt-strip, and even with the limited bomb load that you claim they had, they still managed to sink the Grom.
As far as I remember she was sunk by a He-111.
I don't think the Churchillian plan included the possibility that the Norwegian commander in Narvik would surrender the city (without a single shot fired) to a "few" German destroyers.
The number of German destroyers was 10 by the way, not a small force in my opinion. :sarc:
And even though the allies managed to sink them all, the Germans was still dug in deep in the fortified city of Narvik, so it wasn't just "abandoned" to the Germans.
By the way, the Norwegian commander who surrendered Narvik was charged with treason and collaboration with the enemy.
samneanderthal
Active member
I consider 10 destroyers a weak invading force. The destroyers carried over a thousand Gebirgsjägers, backed by bombers and the naval artillery so I don't think the Harbor commander could have done much, unless he had mines, torpedoes or coastal artillery. Was he convicted? The pitty is that the 2 gunboats with their heavy artillery were sunk before they sank the destroyers with their longer range atillery.
Landing the Hurricanes on a carrier was a remarkable feat, but should not have been necessary. However, taking off is definitely not difficult, a moderately loaded Hurricane has a lower wing loading than a fully loaded Brewster Buffalo (a carrier plane) and comparable power.
I don't think the seas in a fjord port can be much rougher than when the carriers had to be resupplied in open seas. Such resupplies involve moving crates weighing several tons containing food, spares for the planes, munitions, etc, Even the commerce raiders often had to resupply from submarines in the middle of the ocean, quite a feat.
The Churchillian plan included occupying Narvik and even invading Sweden, but oh surprise, he was beaten there by the German navy. Too bad he didn't send the fast Polish destroyers and a couple of cruisers with troops ahead and the carriers with a battleship and cruisers behind. Probably some admirals told him something like that, but Churchill was good at ignoring professional advice.
If an He-111 put a bomb on a destroyer, it had to be a hell of a crew, as I dont think it could dive bomb. It is more likely that it was a Ju-88 or something like that, as the STukas would not have had the range.
By the way, Glorious and Furious were pretty good carriers. Pegasus (Ark Royal) was the ridiculous one. 8 seaplanes and 11 knots.
Landing the Hurricanes on a carrier was a remarkable feat, but should not have been necessary. However, taking off is definitely not difficult, a moderately loaded Hurricane has a lower wing loading than a fully loaded Brewster Buffalo (a carrier plane) and comparable power.
I don't think the seas in a fjord port can be much rougher than when the carriers had to be resupplied in open seas. Such resupplies involve moving crates weighing several tons containing food, spares for the planes, munitions, etc, Even the commerce raiders often had to resupply from submarines in the middle of the ocean, quite a feat.
The Churchillian plan included occupying Narvik and even invading Sweden, but oh surprise, he was beaten there by the German navy. Too bad he didn't send the fast Polish destroyers and a couple of cruisers with troops ahead and the carriers with a battleship and cruisers behind. Probably some admirals told him something like that, but Churchill was good at ignoring professional advice.
If an He-111 put a bomb on a destroyer, it had to be a hell of a crew, as I dont think it could dive bomb. It is more likely that it was a Ju-88 or something like that, as the STukas would not have had the range.
By the way, Glorious and Furious were pretty good carriers. Pegasus (Ark Royal) was the ridiculous one. 8 seaplanes and 11 knots.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
The Grom was sunk by an He 111 of KG-100 flown by Lt. Korthals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCyG7bHFDUY&feature=player_embedded#!
Seems those fast Polish destroyers were not fast enough to dodge an He 111.
samneanderthal
Active member
Getting back to the east. I'd like to mention one of the most fruitful and gallant raids in WW II. The Japs had captured Port Blair and based there a dozen 2 and 4 engine, very long range flying boats which were providing invaluable information to the imperial navy regarding British ships, which were promptly sunk after detection. There were only 3 Hudsons with the range to attack the distant island and that only after stopping to refuel. The planes raided the Jap base on two occassions (April 14 and 18, 1942), facing Zeroes in the second raid. Only one Hudson survived, but all the flying boats were destroyed or heavily damaged, leaving the Japs without intelligence for a while.
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84RFK
Active member
While you consider 10 destroyers a weak invading force, the German high command considered it sufficient, and they were proven right.
The defence of Narvik was divided between the Norwegian navy with 2 obsolete coastal defence ships (the Eidsvold and the Norge) both commissioned in 1901.and the army commanded by Col. Sundlo who had dug in around the harbour and possible landing zones, plus a substantial reserve in and around the city.
The German destroyers was a little more than half the size of the Norwegian ships, had twice the speed and in addition to being top modern, they carried state of the art main artillery and higly efficient torpedo batteries.
Taken into consideration that both main batteries and secondary armament on the Norwegian vessels also was of pre-WW I vintage, the size (calibre) doesn't say much of their potential effect.
The Norwegian navy was hopelessly outgunned and outnumbered.
The army could have delayed the German landing long enough to sabotage the harbour and the railway, both vital for the shipping of Swedish iron-ore and thus the main objective for the Germans, and then regrouped in order to fend the Germans off.
Col. Sundlo however didn't do anything, and instead surrendered the city and it's defences to the Germans, he was subject of "Standrett" ( a type of drum-head court-martial) in absentia where commanding general Fleischer sentenced him to death, but as this sentence was to be carried out within 24 hours to have effect, otherwise the case should be transfered to a civilian court, it didn't affect Col. Sundlo who stayed safe with the Germans.
After the war he was prosecuted for treason and collaboration with the enemy, the charges for treason was dropped, but he was convicted for collaboration.
The court was originally in favour of a death sentence, but later settled for life inprisonment.
The capitulation in Narvik would have been total if it wasn't for smaller groups of soldiers sneaking away during night, plus a force of 200 soldiers under command of Maj. Omdahl who simply marched out of the city right in front of the German troops guarding the exit routes.
The Brewster Buffalo did moderately well as a carrier-based fighter in the US Navy as the US carriers generally had a longer flight-deck than the Royal Navy carriers, the Royal Navy however didn't use the Buffalo's a carrier-based fighters.
The British carriers on the Narvik front could only theoreticly reach a maximum speed of 30 knots under good conditions, and the waters off the coast of Narvik, even as Vestfjorden is considered "sheltered waters" by standars unknown to me, didn't actually offer any good conditions.
Heavy waves and snowstorms being more of the rule than an exception, it's a remarkable feat that they didn't blow the boilers and turbines when they pushed old Glorious up to 30 knots in order to let the Hurricanes take off.
As for transfering heavy equipment in those waters in april, forget it.
Even without the ability of dive bombing it appears that an identified He-111 did sink the Grom.
samneanderthal
Active member
Hi George,
It appears that Z1 was sunk by a friendly He111 and Z3 hit a mine when rescueing the crew from Z1. A very costly case of friendly fire for a small navy. The KM and the LF had failed to inform each other that they were conducting operations in the same area.
Hi 84RFK,
There is an excellent propaganda series of 9 videos in German on Utube. Kampf um Norwegen. You can see pretty calm seas in Narvik, while the British pick up the Grom's survivors.
It appears that Z1 was sunk by a friendly He111 and Z3 hit a mine when rescueing the crew from Z1. A very costly case of friendly fire for a small navy. The KM and the LF had failed to inform each other that they were conducting operations in the same area.
Hi 84RFK,
There is an excellent propaganda series of 9 videos in German on Utube. Kampf um Norwegen. You can see pretty calm seas in Narvik, while the British pick up the Grom's survivors.
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84RFK
Active member
The same occurs if you check the youtube link provided by MontyB here, and the sea is definately calm.
Would you start transfering goods (crated airplanes) between two stationary ships in a fjord where the Germans sunk ORP Grom just minutes earlier...?
samneanderthal
Active member
Certainly, if you are covered by the 40 plus Hurricanes you launched when you arrived. If they had been there the LW would not have sent He-111s to sink Grom.
Actually, Britain had enough of carriers to send plenty of assembled Hurricanes and more than enough ships to land a large force. Churchill just didn't plan it well.
The German invasion was coordinated so that most places were attacked within a short time, whereas Churchill sent a few ships to lay mines, etc, that alerted the Germans of their intention and then attacked or landed in several places at different times and with few planes, allowing the Germans time to respond.
Actually, Britain had enough of carriers to send plenty of assembled Hurricanes and more than enough ships to land a large force. Churchill just didn't plan it well.
The German invasion was coordinated so that most places were attacked within a short time, whereas Churchill sent a few ships to lay mines, etc, that alerted the Germans of their intention and then attacked or landed in several places at different times and with few planes, allowing the Germans time to respond.
According to my refs, there were British mines in the area, but the He-111 was given "credit" for both.
84RFK
Active member
Take a look at that youtube flick once again.
Notice something?
The water is calm, almost like a mirror.
That indicates no wind, how are you going to get the Hurricanes off the deck of HMS Glorious without any wind?
And the presense of RAF fighters didn't stop the Luftwaffe from sinking the Grom.
samneanderthal
Active member
Wrong, all planes (18 Gladiators) of the 263 squadron were lost by April 26 and the squadron would not return until May 21 (11 days after the invasion of France!), still flying Gladiators but backed by Hurricanes. The Grum sank on May 4, coverless. Again, airplanes ruled in WW II.
You assemble 5 planes every 2 days and store them, when you have 20 or more you can either wait for wind or sail looking for wind out of the fjord and launch them, while you continue assembling. But like I said all this is not necessary, since Britain had plenty of carriers to ferry the planes in time (had Churchill known the paramount importance of planes and how to plan).
By the way the first 18 Gladiators were not transported with enough mechanics, etc, so some were not operational while they were under attack. Few, obsolete and poorly attended. I pity the brave pilots who had to put up with such leaders and be evacuated twice, most dying in the second one.
It is difficult to use invaluable pilots less efficiently during the most crucial days of the war.
You assemble 5 planes every 2 days and store them, when you have 20 or more you can either wait for wind or sail looking for wind out of the fjord and launch them, while you continue assembling. But like I said all this is not necessary, since Britain had plenty of carriers to ferry the planes in time (had Churchill known the paramount importance of planes and how to plan).
By the way the first 18 Gladiators were not transported with enough mechanics, etc, so some were not operational while they were under attack. Few, obsolete and poorly attended. I pity the brave pilots who had to put up with such leaders and be evacuated twice, most dying in the second one.
It is difficult to use invaluable pilots less efficiently during the most crucial days of the war.
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84RFK
Active member
And as there was no aircover to protect Grom, how do you suppose a stationary cargo vessel could possibly load crated airplanes on a similar stationary Glorious without having the Luftwaffe swarming all over them?
samneanderthal
Active member
Like I said the 40 plus assembled Hurricanes launched by the carrier upon arrival in April are providing cover (much more so than 18 Gladiators).
Had there been more Hurricanes and troops in Norway since April, Hitler would have had to send more planes and troops there too, instead of attacking France. He needed Narvik at any cost, because he could not count yet on the French iron ore.
Had there been more Hurricanes and troops in Norway since April, Hitler would have had to send more planes and troops there too, instead of attacking France. He needed Narvik at any cost, because he could not count yet on the French iron ore.
84RFK
Active member
If Hitler had been admitted to the Academy of Arts in Wienna..... :bang:
samneanderthal
Active member
Is your point, Churchill did everything right and no one has the right to criticize him? or is it things were like they were and it is useless to analize mistakes, because they cannot be changed? neither of which makes sense to me. My point is that Churchill made many basic mistakes that wasted many lives and resources and would have cost Britain the war were it not for the US and USSR, but people choose to ignore them because of his nice, abundant literary and speech BS. Britain had formidable resources that were used very poorly and looked like an amateur in 1939-42 not like a world power. Compare its performance to that of Finland, Poland, Japan or Romania in WW II, not to mention Germany, all of which had more limited resources.
By the way the Germans did use Stukas to attack some ships so they must have had aerodromes further north, since its range was quite limited. In 41 they also fought even in Murmansk with Bf-109, so it is far from impossible to build and maintain aerodromes in northern Norway for anybody with initiative and determination.
By the way the Germans did use Stukas to attack some ships so they must have had aerodromes further north, since its range was quite limited. In 41 they also fought even in Murmansk with Bf-109, so it is far from impossible to build and maintain aerodromes in northern Norway for anybody with initiative and determination.
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84RFK
Active member
No, they all made mistakes, every single one of the politicians and officers in charge, none of them were perfect.
Churchill took over a complete mess from Chamberlain and his "Peace for our time".
Roosevelt had the majority of his Pacific Fleet sunk by the Japanese in Pearl Harbour, wich Hirohito made the mistake of attacking.
Mussolini got the idea that he could actually go to war.
Horthy joined up with the Axis.
Hitler invaded Poland.
Etc.
The only sane dictator/leader was perhaps Franco who declared Spain neutral and managed to stay out of the war.
Oh, and since you obviously have the impression that it's easy to build an airfield in a few weeks in april, you are more than welcome to my place in april when the soil is thawing, and try for yourself.
A simple task of digging a ditch will only leave you muddy and frustrated.
I'm off, but if you're getting bored you can have this: :bored: