Best tankers
Doppleganger
Active member
Ashes said:
Well for me that's easy. If you are talking about the period from 1939-1943 then German tankers were by some way the best trained, and because of the empowerment culture of the German Army and leaders like Guderian, Rommel, Balck, Hausser, von Manstein et al they were the most adaptable and efficient. From mid 1943 onwards Soviet tankers began to catch the Germans up but never did. Soviet operational tactics just did not place the same emphasis on individual skill as German tactics did.
After mid 1944 it's a little less decisive. I think German tankers were still the best but British and American tankers were catching them up. Because of the German tendency to regard the Panzerwaffen as an elite arm of the Wehrmacht, German tankers remained very good almost up until the end.
LeEnfield
Active member
The German Tankers had a head start with their battlefield training in Spain with the civil war there. The Germans had more and better and better equipment as they had been planning for war for quite a number of years before it happened. Their tanks were better gunned and fairly heavily armoured from the start and it took the Allies years to try and catch up
Ollie Garchy
Active member
There were a few tank encounters during WWII that merit special attention. I am unfortunately only familiar with German examples.
Before mentioning what comes to mind as one of the greatest single examples, I would like to add that the war in the west always pales in contrast to Eastern Front encounters. I remember looking through the German war records compiled by the American military after the war. One example at the end of the war stood out. When the Soviets stormed across the Oder and headed towards Berlin, a small unit of lone German tank and sp-artillery (I think it was 3 tanks) charged into the mass, blunted the advance and destroyed a large number of Soviet tanks near Görlitz. (I think it was 60 or so).
The west was always different in scale but sometimes no less spectacular. Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann on 13 June 1944 charged his "Tiger" into an advancing British armour column near Villers-Bocage (Normandy). The British "Cromwells" and "Fireflys" were taken completely by surprise. (Hardly surprising considering the odds) Wittmann stopped the column by destroying the first vehicle and proceeded to blow up around 20 tanks in swift succession. Not satisfied with the results, he then took the town, created havoc and retreated.
The war witnessed many such examples on both sides. I would however like to leap into the dark and make a series of claims: (1) German tank crews were better trained (forget Allied "battle drill"); German tanks were better all-rounders (forget Soviet steel thickness); and the Germans were fighting for their survival (think about strategic bombing and Soviet vengeance). This last point is something we should explore.
Ollie Garchy
Before mentioning what comes to mind as one of the greatest single examples, I would like to add that the war in the west always pales in contrast to Eastern Front encounters. I remember looking through the German war records compiled by the American military after the war. One example at the end of the war stood out. When the Soviets stormed across the Oder and headed towards Berlin, a small unit of lone German tank and sp-artillery (I think it was 3 tanks) charged into the mass, blunted the advance and destroyed a large number of Soviet tanks near Görlitz. (I think it was 60 or so).
The west was always different in scale but sometimes no less spectacular. Hauptsturmführer Michael Wittmann on 13 June 1944 charged his "Tiger" into an advancing British armour column near Villers-Bocage (Normandy). The British "Cromwells" and "Fireflys" were taken completely by surprise. (Hardly surprising considering the odds) Wittmann stopped the column by destroying the first vehicle and proceeded to blow up around 20 tanks in swift succession. Not satisfied with the results, he then took the town, created havoc and retreated.
The war witnessed many such examples on both sides. I would however like to leap into the dark and make a series of claims: (1) German tank crews were better trained (forget Allied "battle drill"); German tanks were better all-rounders (forget Soviet steel thickness); and the Germans were fighting for their survival (think about strategic bombing and Soviet vengeance). This last point is something we should explore.
Ollie Garchy
Ollie Garchy
Active member
One more thing...forget about Spain or other typical excuses. German battle doctrine counted most. That is, while the Allies forced their soldiers to rehearse specific engagements ("battle drill"), the Germans stressed the need for decisive decisions at lower command levels. Hence Wittmann's decision.
I am not sure of Soviet training techniques. If however one extrapolates from the standard Soviet tactical doctrine of shock and the fact that tank crews used flags to communicate, the Soviet ability to react fluidly to battle conditions was probably quite limited.
Ollie Garchy
I am not sure of Soviet training techniques. If however one extrapolates from the standard Soviet tactical doctrine of shock and the fact that tank crews used flags to communicate, the Soviet ability to react fluidly to battle conditions was probably quite limited.
Ollie Garchy
Doppleganger
Active member
Ollie Garchy said:
I think you are quite correct regarding German empowerment at the NCO and junior officer level. Experience demonstrated that when German units had their lines of communication disrupted and no longer had orders to follow, formations right down to squad level were able to form themselves into mini-kampgruppes and still operate effectively. This is one of the reasons why the Germans inflicted such lop-sided casualties on the Red Army, almost right up until the end.
The Red Army, according to Krivosheev, lost 13,800 T-34s in 1944 alone. That collossal figure tells its own story.
The German tankers were by far the best in the world 1939-1942, but eventually after some very bitter lessons, the allies eventually caught up in most aspects.
The American tankers in an amazingly short time, and with little experience, bettered the Panzers at El Guettar, Arracourt, the Mortain offensive, and the Bulge, It showed that Americans quickly learnt the ropes after Kasserine.
And where the efforts of tanker aces like of Wittmann, Barkmann and others were honed by many years of hard fighting in Poland, France, the Balkans and the Eastern front, the little known exploits of American tankers like Staff Sergeant Lafayette G. Pool, who again with little experience in tank warfare, [and was fighting against Panthers in his hopelessly outclassed M4,] is credited with 258 vehicles destroyed, 250 German prisoners of war taken, and over 1,000 dead before the guns of his tank, IN THE MOOD.
By all accounts the top Russian ace was Guards Capt. Samokhin Konstantin, 4th Tank Brigade, in BT-7's, and T-34's, died in 1942 with 69 kills + 13 other AFVs, 82 guns, 117 motor vehicles.
Although Lavrinenko Dmitriy (T-34, 4th tank brigade) is some times mentioned as the top Panzer killer.
The American tankers in an amazingly short time, and with little experience, bettered the Panzers at El Guettar, Arracourt, the Mortain offensive, and the Bulge, It showed that Americans quickly learnt the ropes after Kasserine.
And where the efforts of tanker aces like of Wittmann, Barkmann and others were honed by many years of hard fighting in Poland, France, the Balkans and the Eastern front, the little known exploits of American tankers like Staff Sergeant Lafayette G. Pool, who again with little experience in tank warfare, [and was fighting against Panthers in his hopelessly outclassed M4,] is credited with 258 vehicles destroyed, 250 German prisoners of war taken, and over 1,000 dead before the guns of his tank, IN THE MOOD.
By all accounts the top Russian ace was Guards Capt. Samokhin Konstantin, 4th Tank Brigade, in BT-7's, and T-34's, died in 1942 with 69 kills + 13 other AFVs, 82 guns, 117 motor vehicles.
Although Lavrinenko Dmitriy (T-34, 4th tank brigade) is some times mentioned as the top Panzer killer.
I'll go along with Michael Wittmann. In a book about D-day it was mentioned that Villers- Bocage was the single most destructive act created by one man..... I don't know if that is true, but it was quite a feat he pulled there!
p.s. I didn't know about Pool and Konstantin, I'll look them up for some extra reading. Thanks for the tip Ashes.
p.s. I didn't know about Pool and Konstantin, I'll look them up for some extra reading. Thanks for the tip Ashes.
Vietnow
New Member
germant tanks were by far the best early on, no doubt. however once they were put up against soviet t-34/85 tanks the t-34's were better. but then with the introduction of the panther (based off of soviet designs by the way) the germans were better again, however the germans sheer lack of tanks was their eventual downfall. the germans learned many things fighting on the eastern front and eventually adapted. BUT with the introduction of the IS-2 later in the war, the germans had no chance.