bayonet improvement idea
mmarsh
Active member
WWI was the last major war where H2H combat occurred on a semi-regular basis. Both sides would Raids each others trenchs and observation points at night in order to secure prisoners.
From what I have read in soldiers experiences in fighting in the Trenches a sharpened shovel was considered a much better weapon than a bayonet.
From what I have read in soldiers experiences in fighting in the Trenches a sharpened shovel was considered a much better weapon than a bayonet.
Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
They had all types of nasty toys in WWI, the Trench Knife and Club come to mind.
Given the choice, I'd rather have been able to use a Bayonet, as that would have meant I was in a more open environment, rather than being in a Trench slugging it out to the death, with a club or shovel, or even a Trench Knife.
Joker
Active member
Thats why I said if your out of ammo. If your opponent still has ammo you are screwed regardless if you use your helmet, your shovel or your high end fighting knife. He will send you one or two of his dirty little helper´s while he is wondering why you wave your shovel over your head
.Same goes with your first aid box in your car or when you go hiking. You wont need it most of the time or hopefully never but you would be thankfull to have it if the "worst case" happens.
These are just my opinions and I´m no hand to hand combat specialist nor was I ever (and never wanna be) in the situation that I need to fix a bayonet or use something else to defend myself in such a situation.
So no offence to anybody.
Greetz Joker
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Your example with the first aid kit in camping isn't very accurate. First Aid kits come in real handy when you go camping and the possibility of having someone get a cut or an infection is actually pretty high... much higher than the chances of you using a bayonet in war in this day and age. Your example of having a first aid kit in your car IS however a good example. The difference? You can leave the first aid kit in your car and forget about it, while you have to haul the bayonet around. Sure, the bayonet alone doesn't weigh much but it's one of those things on a long list of small stuff that you'd rather be without because the added weight of all of them put together isn't insignificant. Not to mention the space it takes up.
And as for the Swiss Army knife, only a fool would use it as a weapon. If you NEED to fight close in you might as well take a swing at him with your butt stock.
In the RoK Marines we're trained to use the bayonet but it is pretty darn obvious from training - and stuff we learn about real life engagements - that we will almost never get to use the bayonet for any other reason than cutting deer or skinning fish. Most modern "war stories" involving the bayonet are legends or just plain BS.
Whatever, for me, I'd rather not bring along something that I may have like a 1/500,000 chance of using and even if the situation came, I would have alternatives in stuff I would have to bring along anyway (i.e. shovel, rifle buttstock) which would be just as effective.
And as for the Swiss Army knife, only a fool would use it as a weapon. If you NEED to fight close in you might as well take a swing at him with your butt stock.
In the RoK Marines we're trained to use the bayonet but it is pretty darn obvious from training - and stuff we learn about real life engagements - that we will almost never get to use the bayonet for any other reason than cutting deer or skinning fish. Most modern "war stories" involving the bayonet are legends or just plain BS.
Whatever, for me, I'd rather not bring along something that I may have like a 1/500,000 chance of using and even if the situation came, I would have alternatives in stuff I would have to bring along anyway (i.e. shovel, rifle buttstock) which would be just as effective.
Joker
Active member
What makes a knife a combat/survival knife???
@ the_13th_redneck
Ok, so it goes with everyones preferences and what he wants to carry arround that he might not need. Thats understandable for me.
@ everybody
So now I have another question. What is the differenece between a "high end fighting/combat knife" and a bayonet? Ok, a bayonet is supposed to stab and like Missileer said bayonets are made of not the best steel and don´t hold the edge at the blade like a knife made out of good steel but if you keep it sharp and choose the right design of the blade can´t you use it for both things, as a bayonet and a combat/survival/fighting knife?
What are the tasks that a C/S/F knife has to perform that a bayonet can´t? Is it only the sharp blade? Or is there still more? OK, the blade has to be dark so it don´t reflect the light and if you work with it like for example if you have to cut wood to build you a kind of dugout the blade of the bayonet maybe gets blunt/edgeless faster than the one of another knife. But you can make it sharp again with a sharpening stone like the one that is build in the scabbard of the M9. Ok, it may not sharpen your knife like a Lansky sharpening system but it will do the job in that situation.
So why is a combat/survival/fighting knife, and especially what makes a knife to a C/S/F knife, better to carry around than a bayonet. But please don´t come up with anything like a Leatherman or other tools. I mean a knife only with a handle, maybe a handguard and a blade.
I hope this is not a to detailed or stupid question.
And if the Admins think this is to much
fftopic: than please delet or make it´s own thread.
Greetz Joker
@ the_13th_redneck
Ok, so it goes with everyones preferences and what he wants to carry arround that he might not need. Thats understandable for me.
@ everybody
So now I have another question. What is the differenece between a "high end fighting/combat knife" and a bayonet? Ok, a bayonet is supposed to stab and like Missileer said bayonets are made of not the best steel and don´t hold the edge at the blade like a knife made out of good steel but if you keep it sharp and choose the right design of the blade can´t you use it for both things, as a bayonet and a combat/survival/fighting knife?
What are the tasks that a C/S/F knife has to perform that a bayonet can´t? Is it only the sharp blade? Or is there still more? OK, the blade has to be dark so it don´t reflect the light and if you work with it like for example if you have to cut wood to build you a kind of dugout the blade of the bayonet maybe gets blunt/edgeless faster than the one of another knife. But you can make it sharp again with a sharpening stone like the one that is build in the scabbard of the M9. Ok, it may not sharpen your knife like a Lansky sharpening system but it will do the job in that situation.
So why is a combat/survival/fighting knife, and especially what makes a knife to a C/S/F knife, better to carry around than a bayonet. But please don´t come up with anything like a Leatherman or other tools. I mean a knife only with a handle, maybe a handguard and a blade.
I hope this is not a to detailed or stupid question.
And if the Admins think this is to much
fftopic: than please delet or make it´s own thread.Greetz Joker
Missileer
Active member
Well, I think you're still on the topic of a better bayonet design. The best way to explain the difference in the survival or fighting knife is that there are knife designs for special ops that may vary according to need. As far as the bayonet goes, it doesnt need and even shouldn't be made for slashing so there's no need for a sharp edge or a handle and hilt. Look at the cruciform bayonets that are used by some countries. They are cheap, easy to produce, sharp point, light to carry, long reach, but don't try to take out a sentry out with it.
A good survival knife should well balanced with a grip made of a material that won't become slippery in the water, rain, mud, or blood. It can have a shorter blade because of being used for close quarters combat. Some have hollow handles with parachute cord wrapping which can be used as a tourniquet or other needs. If a soldier needs to lighten his load by dropping his gear, the bayonet goes with it but your knife stays in your boot or in a holder on your leg or belt. The hollow handle can carry fire making materials as well as a morphine syringe or small flashlight and compass.
A good survival knife should well balanced with a grip made of a material that won't become slippery in the water, rain, mud, or blood. It can have a shorter blade because of being used for close quarters combat. Some have hollow handles with parachute cord wrapping which can be used as a tourniquet or other needs. If a soldier needs to lighten his load by dropping his gear, the bayonet goes with it but your knife stays in your boot or in a holder on your leg or belt. The hollow handle can carry fire making materials as well as a morphine syringe or small flashlight and compass.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I had a fighting knife a few years back which had a hollow handle and inside was a small magnetic compass, a line and hook (for fishing), a rubber band with leather pad and I forget what else. An intersting implimentation on it was it had this pair of metal prongs that could be folded out and combined with the rubber band to make a sling shot (for hunting birds).
Pretty neat.
Not the kind of knife I'd want to waste attached to the tip of a rifle (where they would be subject to all kinds of abuse that good knives shouldn't be).
My fighting knife wasn't THAT great though but I guess it was okay for a 10 year old.
@Joker:
Yes, the bayonet is a personal preference.
Pretty neat.
Not the kind of knife I'd want to waste attached to the tip of a rifle (where they would be subject to all kinds of abuse that good knives shouldn't be).
My fighting knife wasn't THAT great though but I guess it was okay for a 10 year old.
@Joker:
Yes, the bayonet is a personal preference.
Joker
Active member
This is the bayonet for the G36 as it is used by Spanish military for their G36E variant. It fits also for the german G36 but you have to buy it yourself.
So what do you think about this one??? It the new fightingknife that is official issued by German Army. The KM 2000 (Kampfmesser 2000 = Fightingknife 2000)
I don´t like it but like I said I´m not a hand-to-hand combat specialist.
My favorite is this one: The Gerber LMF
I can call one my own and I love it. They don´t produce them anymore and that makes them hard to find but its a great knife!!!
If´ve added a Leatherman Pst (not my favorite tool but small) to the front and a Pelican M6 Xenon flashlight to the side for when I go outdoors.
Here is a review so if you want to read just klick here http://www.alphacgsn.com/warlord/prods/gerbrlmf.htm
Greetz Joker
So what do you think about this one??? It the new fightingknife that is official issued by German Army. The KM 2000 (Kampfmesser 2000 = Fightingknife 2000)
I don´t like it but like I said I´m not a hand-to-hand combat specialist.
My favorite is this one: The Gerber LMF
I can call one my own and I love it. They don´t produce them anymore and that makes them hard to find but its a great knife!!!
If´ve added a Leatherman Pst (not my favorite tool but small) to the front and a Pelican M6 Xenon flashlight to the side for when I go outdoors.
Here is a review so if you want to read just klick here http://www.alphacgsn.com/warlord/prods/gerbrlmf.htm
Greetz Joker
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
I still prefer the Marine K-Bar.
As for the frequency of hand to hand fighting. WWI saw a massive amount owing to the tactics of the conflict but the men who fought in the Pacific in WWII saw it on a VERY regular basis. I guarantee you the moron who thinks he can be in the Army today with all of its sophisticated weaponry is able to neglect one of the soldiers tools is a soldier who will be the silent attendee at the funeral. When all is said and done it takes boots on the ground up close and personal to win a fight and :cen: happens when you go room to room... or you can listen to the armchair generals and forget all about this uncomfortable reality.
As for the frequency of hand to hand fighting. WWI saw a massive amount owing to the tactics of the conflict but the men who fought in the Pacific in WWII saw it on a VERY regular basis. I guarantee you the moron who thinks he can be in the Army today with all of its sophisticated weaponry is able to neglect one of the soldiers tools is a soldier who will be the silent attendee at the funeral. When all is said and done it takes boots on the ground up close and personal to win a fight and :cen: happens when you go room to room... or you can listen to the armchair generals and forget all about this uncomfortable reality.
Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
Years back when Leatherman first came out EOD Techs had asked the company to make an EOD model, which they did, and still do, with Blasting Cap Crimpers.
As for the Bayonet, sure we used it (if one did not have a better knife) to stick in the ground and wrap our Firing Wire around it, and to cut things, things other than Time Fuze, Det Cord and Wire, and we used it to open things.
I didn't see anything wrong with it, but I never had to put it on a Rifle and fight with it, and wouldn't have liked that application a bit, no matter what the Bayonet looked like.
As for the Bayonet, sure we used it (if one did not have a better knife) to stick in the ground and wrap our Firing Wire around it, and to cut things, things other than Time Fuze, Det Cord and Wire, and we used it to open things.
I didn't see anything wrong with it, but I never had to put it on a Rifle and fight with it, and wouldn't have liked that application a bit, no matter what the Bayonet looked like.
masterblaster
Active member
two points
bayonet fighting. a disciplined army will always prevail over an untrained rable and the bayonet is one reason. Remember how us yankees would not close with the lobsterbacks during the revolution.
just after the american Civil War, a survey was conducted to see what each wounded man was hurt by. Someone noticed that few solders had been wounded by the bayonet, so it was assumed that the weapon was not effective. Then some old NCO commented that men are not wounded by the bayonet; either they run away or they are killed.
The bayonet is obsolete: but it still works as designed, it still instills fear in the heart of the enemy and it still can be used to open an MRE pouch. nough said.
bayonet fighting. a disciplined army will always prevail over an untrained rable and the bayonet is one reason. Remember how us yankees would not close with the lobsterbacks during the revolution.
just after the american Civil War, a survey was conducted to see what each wounded man was hurt by. Someone noticed that few solders had been wounded by the bayonet, so it was assumed that the weapon was not effective. Then some old NCO commented that men are not wounded by the bayonet; either they run away or they are killed.
The bayonet is obsolete: but it still works as designed, it still instills fear in the heart of the enemy and it still can be used to open an MRE pouch. nough said.
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senojekips
Active member
^^^ I'm with Him^^^
I would suggest that many don't like the bayonet as a weapon because it is somewhat barbaric and unlike a bullet it is clearly visible, striking fear into people. (That is the whole idea)
There are several recorded examples of the AIF routing defensive positions in the western desert and elsewhere using nothing more than bayonets.
I would suggest that many don't like the bayonet as a weapon because it is somewhat barbaric and unlike a bullet it is clearly visible, striking fear into people. (That is the whole idea)
There are several recorded examples of the AIF routing defensive positions in the western desert and elsewhere using nothing more than bayonets.
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Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
Better you (Australia) than me (US). As I said, I wouldn't have liked that application a bit.
The how doesn't bother me, killing is killing as far as I'm concerned, I just don't like the idea of bringing a Bayonet to a possible gunfight, and then perhaps get shot long before I'm close enough to use the Bayonet.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Basically what I said. I wouldn't expect myself to use a bayonet in a real fight. You say you need it if you run out of bullets? What are the chances of you and the enemy running out of bullets at the same time? If you're out of bullets, the chances are the enemy's still got plenty of it lying around.
Using the bayonet to open a MRE pouch? You can do that with a Leatherman or Swiss Army knife. Or your teeth even (though it takes some work). And you can do a lot of stuff with those things than you can with the bayonet. And they take up FAR less space and weigh a lot less. Still craving for a full sized knife? Get yourself a good fighting knife.
Using the bayonet to open a MRE pouch? You can do that with a Leatherman or Swiss Army knife. Or your teeth even (though it takes some work). And you can do a lot of stuff with those things than you can with the bayonet. And they take up FAR less space and weigh a lot less. Still craving for a full sized knife? Get yourself a good fighting knife.
Joker
Active member
And that is the point that I don´t get. If you carry a fighting knife that only purpose is to cut your enemys throat or stab it in his kidney why don´t leave the fighting knife at home and take your M9 or M7 with you that can do the same job. You also can use it to cut, stab or to fix on you rifle(just in case everybody is out of ammo) or like senojekips said, just to striking fear in your enemy in a RIOT (I think thats a very good point!!! You can´t do this with just a knife that you hold in your hand!!!). That is one thing that you can do more with a bayonet than just with a knife.
Greetz Joker
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
You can do more with your knife than your regular bayonet. Whatever, I think I made my point here a few posts ago anyway.
