A bit trigger happy
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Chukpike
Banned
Looking at Ted's profile. Seems he is one of the civilian intellectually elite college professors. (no military service).
Seems to want to bash the military. Or is it just the US military?
We all enjoy free speech in western countries, I just wonder who Ted thinks gave him that right?
Voltaire was said,"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire (1694 - 1778), (Attributed); originated in "The Friends of Voltaire", 1906
Voltaire talked about defending your right to free speech, but it was the military you are attacking who actually gave it to you.
Seems to want to bash the military. Or is it just the US military?
We all enjoy free speech in western countries, I just wonder who Ted thinks gave him that right?
Voltaire was said,"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire (1694 - 1778), (Attributed); originated in "The Friends of Voltaire", 1906
Voltaire talked about defending your right to free speech, but it was the military you are attacking who actually gave it to you.
Blitzmädel
Active member
“It is the ability to take a joke, not make one, that proves you have a sense of humor.”
Cheers
Kristina :cheers:
Chukpike
Banned
True, but since he posted this in the political section and not the joke section it was not intended as a joke, was it?
And as a Vietnam veteran, who attended college after I got back. The "baby killer" joke, is a little tired and been done. Just SSDD, coming from the same clueless people.
Old jokes are like fish, they begin to smell with age. And bad jokes smell from the beginning.
Blitzmädel
Active member
Maybe not; I think he was just trying to be sarcastic.
And as a Vietnam veteran, who attended college after I got back. The "baby killer" joke, is a little tired and been done. Just SSDD, coming from the same clueless people.
Point taken; I’m aware that service in Vietnam, still is a very sensitive subject for most veterans.
Old jokes are like fish, they begin to smell with age. And bad jokes smell from the beginning.
Well; the world is full of bad jokes. Believe me; the things I have to listen to when people finds out that I’m in the service and have been in Afghanistan. But I just forgive and forget!
Cheers
Kristina :cheers:
senojekips
Active member
It's not so much Vietnam per se, but the thing that makes those who think, angry, is that our respective governments learnt nothing from the experience. They take willing young men, convince them that they are going to save western democracy from the Bogey man, and when they have finished with them, they are consigned to the rubbish heap of history.
Unfortunately, it takes hindsight to see that we actually achieved nothing more than killing tens of thousands of our respective nations youth in the prime of their lives, and being made to look like fools in the eyes of the world when we had to eventually go cap in hand to Paris and beg our "primitive foe" for peace. Our current efforts to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis is exactly the same, it's merely that this time we are desperately trying to save face. Afghanistan will be the same, in the end we will achieve nothing, the Afghans have never been successfully pacified, and it's not for the want of trying.
There is no such thing as a "bad" joke, after all that is what a joke is,... something nasty, that happens to someone else[/quote]
Remember,... it is said that there are really only seven jokes in the whole world, all the rest are just adaptations, and usually very poor ones at that.
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The Other Guy
Spam King
That hasn't really stopped chain e-mails from being posted in the Political Threads in the past.
Chukpike
Banned
Whatever, I made an observation.
PJ24
Active member
I don't agree with Ted's assessment, but I can understand why he may have come to the conclusion that he did. I don't believe he was intending to "bash" the military. But Ted is a big boy and he can speak for himself on that, I'm sure.
I do think people are forgetting that this footage is completely out of context. It's one clip from one part of a day, week, month, etc. No one knows what the history was, trends, tactics, etc of the enemy at that time. No one knows what occurred prior.
Hindsight is 20/20 and suggestive journalism is pretty powerful. If I tell you they were journalists, then I put little pointy things on the screen telling you they have cameras. Well, that's what you see. Now take that away, try to put yourself in the moment, add in previous incidents, TTPs, trends, etc and see if you can have such a clear view. Well, you can't and that's the problem with armchair quarterbacking and out of context reviews.
I could probably give an assessment on what I saw just from that video, even draw a conclusion, but I doubt it would be right. The driver followed his ROEs, he was cleared and he made a judgement call based on the information he had at that time. That to me, is a good shoot.
War ain't pretty and sadly, **** happens. Seems callous, but it's a reality.
I do think people are forgetting that this footage is completely out of context. It's one clip from one part of a day, week, month, etc. No one knows what the history was, trends, tactics, etc of the enemy at that time. No one knows what occurred prior.
Hindsight is 20/20 and suggestive journalism is pretty powerful. If I tell you they were journalists, then I put little pointy things on the screen telling you they have cameras. Well, that's what you see. Now take that away, try to put yourself in the moment, add in previous incidents, TTPs, trends, etc and see if you can have such a clear view. Well, you can't and that's the problem with armchair quarterbacking and out of context reviews.
I could probably give an assessment on what I saw just from that video, even draw a conclusion, but I doubt it would be right. The driver followed his ROEs, he was cleared and he made a judgement call based on the information he had at that time. That to me, is a good shoot.
War ain't pretty and sadly, **** happens. Seems callous, but it's a reality.
The Other Guy
Spam King
Imagine that, me too.
senojekips
Active member
We all know that these things do happen. What we do have to ensure, is that they don't happen any more than absolutely necessary.
It's up to each of us as individuals to judge what we think is morally reasonable bearing in mind he fact that it is a war zone.
We all know that these things do happen. What we do have to ensure, is that they don't happen any more than absolutely necessary.
It's up to each of us as individuals to judge what we think is morally reasonable bearing in mind he fact that it is a war zone.
Being quite an avid watcher of YouTube videos, I often raise the question, "FFS why doesn't he shoot"? He had them all bunched together yet waited for clearance from his controller before firing, by which time several of the group have disappeared.
No, in some shots, I can't tell who is actually armed and who may only be an interested onlooker, but I tend to think, "Well even if they are not actively shooting or planting the IED, they are obviously supporters, and that in by book makes them become a legitimate collateral risk.
It's up to each of us as individuals to judge what we think is morally reasonable bearing in mind he fact that it is a war zone.
We all know that these things do happen. What we do have to ensure, is that they don't happen any more than absolutely necessary.
It's up to each of us as individuals to judge what we think is morally reasonable bearing in mind he fact that it is a war zone.
Being quite an avid watcher of YouTube videos, I often raise the question, "FFS why doesn't he shoot"? He had them all bunched together yet waited for clearance from his controller before firing, by which time several of the group have disappeared.
No, in some shots, I can't tell who is actually armed and who may only be an interested onlooker, but I tend to think, "Well even if they are not actively shooting or planting the IED, they are obviously supporters, and that in by book makes them become a legitimate collateral risk.
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Nah... I didn't want to bash the military, not even the US military. And I am no college professors either, just a school teacher trying to put some sense into kids.
But the point I did try to make is that I can't believe that we (or perhaps I should say "the military") keep going into places on a whim. Our chosen government think up some quick and easy plan to bring peace & democracy to some godforsaken part of the world. We all know that politicians think short term and use whom ever they need to get their plan done....
And it has been done a thousand times before! Young and able kids get send away on the pretense of "doing the right thing" but who's right thing are they doing? Certainly not those of the people who got shot up in this video? And they belonged to the group that were to receive democracy. I understand the concept of sacrifice and collateral damage, but try to explain that to the orphans and widows...
What is the alternative? Weren't all great changes and revolutions started by the indigenous people?
What option remains? Just a shrug of the shoulders and a wry laugh... Perhaps a funny pic of a sad & tragic event, because there is nothing left to do. Politicians won't change and young kids keep getting send away.
And to end on a critical note: why can't the military just admit that they mess up sometimes with great consequences for the people involved? Just a simple "we tore a group of civvies apart and we are sorry... we messed up!" And when you play with other lifes that isn't a strange question to ask for is it? Don't attack me for asking that very question or does being critical not exist in your democracy?
PJ24
Active member
And who did the investigation? I can predict all outcomes done by an institute that will not admit errors. And because the military see this as a valid shooting, that does not make it so.
I do however admit that it is easy for me to say this. Hence my point of not going there in the first place. You want freedom, you fight for it. This has been the way for millenia...
Chukpike
Banned
By suggesting that the military kill children as in your picture? Why not teach them the causes and failures of the various political systems and about religious intolerance?
Militaries going into places on a whim? I don't think so, they were ordered to go. This was done because the government leaders could or would not find a better solution.
There is a saying, "It is a poor workman who blames his tools."
No. (Apparently you don't teach history).
All of the Western Hemisphere has been greatly changed by the immigration from Europe. The US revolution and expansion was not accomplished by the indigenous natives.
I just missed what you thought was funny about the possibility of children dying in your first post.
Things that can be done, is to change the leaders or work to solve the differences.
If you read the news the military quite often admits mistakes. Sometimes their is a dispute between sides as to what happened, why because it is subject to interpretation. But to say the military does not admit mistakes is to ignore the facts.
Interesting that you accuse me of attacking you, it just is not true.
I made an observation and asked two questions. I did not try and determine if you were right or wrong.
From my original post:
"Seems to want to bash the military. Or is it just the US military?
We all enjoy free speech in western countries, I just wonder who Ted thinks gave him that right?"
I think as an educator, you have a responsibility to leave your own prejudices out of the classroom and be straight forward with your students.
Note:
I do agree with you that, "You want freedom, you fight for it. This has been the way for millenia..." Why should Americans die for someone else's freedom, we have been doing this since 1917.
Unfortunately that was what kept governments from stopping Hitler until it was to late to avert WWII.
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PJ24
Active member
Just check it out, man. The 15-6 investigations don't have to be your only source, look at the pictures and the video yourself. It's pretty clear.
It's not fair to claim the US military won't hem up its own members, it has several times during this war. Some of them highly justified, others were way out of line and cost good men their careers. I'm not saying the DoD is perfect, it's not, but each service component has taken some black eyes during this war.
I think a big problem comes from you guys not understanding the climate over there, how ROEs are dictated, or how the bad guys operate. For the US military, things are heavily regulated and the US military hasn't shied from away making patsies out of good service members costing them their careers and livelihood. You can't take a crap in Iraq without someone higher wanting to know where you're going to take it, how you're going to deliver the feces, where it will be deposited and how it will be disposed of. Kind of a gross analogy, but I think it gets my point across.
US Forces have shown a lot of restraint in dealing with the Iraqis, sometimes to the detriment of their of safety. But places like Wiki aren't going to publish those stories because they aren't sensationalist.
People at home tend to forget that war isn't about happiness and sunshine and when you commit a military force to an area that has combatants, bad stuff is going to happen. If you want to point fingers, point fingers at policy makers that dictate the military's mission, those that actually send and keep the military in a theater, but don't hem up the military for doing their job and trying to get home alive. I doubt anyone here would be willing to sacrifice themselves on a "just in case."
It's easy to assume how things are over there based on what the news feeds us back home and based on the independent biased reports but until you see it for yourself, it's good to remember that there ARE two sides and there ARE things you don't get to know.
Besides, if one feels the US military won't tell the whole story, how on earth could they logically assume their independent news source is going to tell the whole story? Bias is bias and just because you (general you) happen to agree with the source, doesn't make it factual.
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