Weapons To Israel.

Debating "Israel is legal or not" is completely theology.
Let's debate how to slove conflict.
Why Israel needs more weapon?
Because,as you know Israel bombed UN peace keeper base.
Israel wants Smart-weapon to avoid hitting civilian by mistake.
If I was an Hezbollah soldier,
1:Fire rocket from clouded town.
2:Israel does counter battery.
3:Call Al Jazeera and yell "Look!This is atrocity of Jew!"
At first,Hezbollah doesn't comply demilitarization with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions 1559.
"The best way to solve this conflict is Israel and Lebanon accept the suggestion of Annan U.N. Secretary General."by Massoud DAHER (Lebanese University/ ILCAA, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies)
Any way we should read more articles about middle east.
Al jazeera is best media of arab nations.
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
Haarets.com is written by easy english.
http://www.haaretz.com/
 
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Englander2 said:
There are various ways to discontinue conflicts, one is to destroy the opposition completely, (this is in the Middle-East practically impossible). Another, less bloody is to come to an agreement (why have both sides refused to do so, in this case?) The worst ,to my mind, (as in WW1), to keep going so long that both sides get tired of fighting and need a few years to recover before starting again. But that is history once more, and so I shall not delve deeper into this possibility out of respect for my learned friends!

Englander, you are forgetting a few points:

1. In a book by Weigley, the author argues that "annihilation" defines the American way of war. Another historian has tinkered with this concept a little. Grenier's new book argues that the American concept of war essentially takes war to the people...extirmination is the name of the game: "early Americans created a military tradition that accepted, legitimized, and encouraged attacks upon and the destruction of noncombatants, villages, and agricultural resources. Most often, early Americans used the tactics and techniques of petite guerre in shockingly violent campaigns to achieve their goals of conquest. In the frontier wars between 1607 and 1814, Americans forged two elements – unlimited war and irregular war – into their first way of war". This concept can be seen in strategic bombing, nuclear war, Agent Orange, etc. In terms of international relations, Americans do not think like Europeans...negotiated peace is something alien.

2. This mentality is a toughie. It leads to the view that everybody else wants to annihilate them. The Indians, as seen in popular culture, were wild savages who had to be eradicated. In fact, all of America's enemies are portrayed in a similar light. This bizarre tendency often leads to developments of truly Orwellian dimensions. The Soviet Union is a classic example. During WWII, "Uncle Joe's" troops were portrayed as innocent and noble men fighting honourably against German monsters. All of that changed after Washington took a look at Soviet activities in 1945. The policymakers remembered why they had hated Bolshevism during the 1930s. The media returned to the concept of a Soviet menace after 1947. All of this is bizarre. It also explains views of Islam.

3. The Treaty of Versailles (the British attempt to balance sane politics with the French desire to destroy Germany) failed in part because the Americans did not support it. The US did not even sign the treaty. During the 1930s, Roosevelt then starting "bitching" that Hitler broke with Versailles...a treaty his government never even officially supported. After 1941, Roosevelt presented a view of war that literally shocked Churchill and Stalin -- unconditional surrender. Roosevelt wanted to deal with the failure of Versailles and in the process offered a normal American concept. The Casablanca declaration removed the need to communicate with German resistance groups and therefore represented a revolution in European politics. Unconditional surrender (and total occupation) is the American way. The enemy is treated as some kind of subhuman until they accept American domination without question. Hence Germany's resurrection from mortal enemy to dependable ally between 1945-1947. Hence the current treatment of Iraq.

American scholars, from Kennan onwards, have long lamented these tendencies. They remove the American ability to discuss matters with opponents and they in fact lead to constant reclassification of states as friend or enemy. The examples are numerous. Pre-Ayatollah Iran was virtuous. The new Iran was not. Saddam Hussein was great while he invaded Iran. He was a tyrant after he invaded Kuwait. All of this, from Kennan's perspective, is done because the American elite doubts the intellectual abilities of the masses. They are considered too stupid to understand international relations. I do not agree with this interpretation. I think that the American frontier mentality leads down this path.

Still, I prefer the general essence of "war of annihilation" (with changes) to that of German pacifism. German pacifism avoids any responsibility whatsoever.

http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0511108990&ss=exc
 
sandy
You sure are correct when you stated that "Al jazeera is best media of arab nations".

They are definitely the propaganda arm of the Arab terrorist groups that are targeting western countries and democratically elected countries in the Middle East. I would NOT generally advocate militarily attacking a news (or) media outlet ... but ... if I were in control of military operations, I would consider Al Jazeera to be a legitimate target ... their actions speak volumes about propaganda and conspiracy with terrorist organizations. Their hate mongering of anything to do with western civilization is tantamount to an admission that they are the propaganda arm of the forces that would attack and destroy democracy.


 
to Eglander2:
"To boris116 question, "Why I have an idea that your sources are anti-Semitic through and through?" and the statement, "This kind of literature that makes outrageous claims is good only for people who WANTS to believe in it."
Most of the articles mentioned are/were used for High school education in Germany. If we accept the statement of "Chief Bones": - Israel has chosen the German army for this role. Olmert - and, "There is at the moment no nation that is behaving in a more friendly way toward Israel than Germany", it is obvious that boris116 has read none of the above, but allows himself to give a judgement on the same."


Sure I have not!(I don't know German and don't have access to your bookshelf).
However, I can't believe your source about 1000 Jews in Palestine, that's why I have asked...
I don't believe that the German schools use such literature as the source. (I mean here just a source for this number - you can claim that I disparage the entire list you have mentioned - they might be good sources for everything else!)
Also, I:
1. didn't mention any judgment, just suspicion:)
2. Said nothing about current German state and German Army

also, the source I have mentioned before(http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm) and it is available for you to look for yourself, discusses the same topic of the numbers of the Jews and Arabs and difficulties in their estimates.
However, the Arabs themselves couldn't make the Jews population lower than 40 000 in the end of XIX century.
That's why I don't trust your sources!
 
Al jazeera might play terrorist videos, but they also report on the israeli side of the war as well. Believe or not, they have problems from westerners and arabs because of what they show. Besides, they're privately owned and have little political insentive to play their stories since they're trying to be like CNN or BBC in the region.
 
WarMachine said:
Al jazeera might play terrorist videos, but they also report on the israeli side of the war as well. Believe or not, they have problems from westerners and arabs because of what they show. Besides, they're privately owned and have little political insentive to play their stories since they're trying to be like CNN or BBC in the region.
There are other media outlets in the Middle East ... but ... Al Qaeda continues to deal exclusely with Al Jazeera - that speaks volumes to the Western Countries. On top of that, Al Jazeera never seems to have any trouble finding an AlQaeda spokesperson when they are looking for a response to a Western story line.
 
As with boris116, I am also not prepared to believe everything that is said. (Remember the reasons given for the Iraq War?) However everyone of us has the chance to do research for him/herself.
On the longer term, the question is whether political problems can be dealt with adequately by military means.
I personally do not think they can. The symptoms may seem possibly to be removed, but the illness itself remains. Maybe I am old-fashioned, but during my days in the forces, we were told our duty was to defend life, not destroy it, as is being done in Lebanon. A war clearly not declared in accordance with the Hague Land War Order.
The borders of Israel, exactly defined United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 have been ignored. Israel certainly has the right to live in peace and protect its citizens within the same. The root of this problem however are the confiscated this areas. Looking at some of the posts on this thread, an impression is given, that most contributors take the side of the occupation forces, rather than that of the oppressed communities living under occupation.
This would be a complete contradiction to the statement made by President Truman on March 25th 1948. (Can be seen on internet, by clicking into the Avalon Project at Yale Law School).
 
Lasting peace is doomed ... unless ...

E2
I can't contradict the contents of some of your posts ... however ... most of what you are posting presupposes that there is NO ACTIVE FIGHTING going on between the concerned parties.

Where the rub comes in, is the fact that you have a number of terrorist groups in the region who ABSOLUTELY DO NOT want peace. Peace means that Israel will be allowed to go about their every-day business - this is anathema to these terrorists. The ONLY thing they would be willing to accept, would be Israel's demise. Nothing else would be acceptable to them.

The deep seated hatred and the history of conflict that goes back for thousands of years, color every facet of the confrontations that occur. As long as Hezbollah and Hamas are allowed to be armed and do NOT renounce their goal of annihilating Israel, a lasting peace will continue to be IMPOSSIBLE. Short periods of relative quiet allow the terrorists groups to regroup, rearm and recruit more fighters. They then come back in even greater carnage ... the terrorists not only target civilians, they will hide behind and amongst civilians to make reprisal even more difficult.

The plan to create a buffer zone patrolled by 'neutral' troops will accomplish exactly one thing ... it will put more terrorist targets (neutral troops), on the ground and in reach of the cowards that make up the terrorist strike groups.

Peace presupposes that all parties want peace ... the last thing that Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist groups want is peace. By the very nature, peace would put them out of business and halt their aim of erasing Israels presence from the earth ... other groups have similar aims with other groups or countries.

Until the rest of the world can get together and attack terrorism everywhere it is found, a lasting world peace will continue to be just a prayer.
 
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Englander2 said:
The borders of Israel, exactly defined United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 have been ignored. Israel certainly has the right to live in peace and protect its citizens within the same. The root of this problem however are the confiscated this areas.

Would you believe, if I tell you that the peacefull-minded Arab neigbours are directly responsible for what borders they have with Israel?
How?
By trying to destroy Israel completely and miserably failing in their attempts.
I were the Arabs who have not accepted the UN resolution about the Israel creation and started the War in 1948.
It were the Arabs, who tried again and again...with the help of the all Jew-haters of the world.
And still trying...
 
Are you equating anti-semitism with anti-israeli sentiments? If someone hates egypt does it mean they hate all muslims because egypt is an islamic nation? You can be the best of friends with jews and dislike israel because israel is a state that has national responsibilities which are at ends with many people around the world. Now if you meant that a person is anti-semitic anyway and wants to do harm to israel then that makes sense, but rarely do you see that in entire nations other than the ones around the mid east.

But i think the confiscated territory being referred to is the golan heights and the palestinian areas which israel still has control of. Golan is not part of israel because no country in the world recognizes it as such and should be given back to syria but israel won't because of the water supplies there and the handful of settlers as well. Same thing for the west bank which has a quarter million israelis living there and israel controls most of the water in that region as well.

If israel doesn't want to worry about "defending" itself anymore, then serious talk has to be made about letting go of these areas and working out arrangements to share the resources in those areas.

I agree israel was wronged in 1948, but they did preemtively attack in 1956 and 1967 which led to an arab attack in 1973. A lot of the problems aren't solely the fault of arabs, israel does take a lot of blame as well.
 
Let's take a look at Israel as compared to the rest of the world.
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html

isr-world.jpg


GreenL-opt.jpg


a. 3 miles wide here
b. Golan Heights

c. Sea of Galilee
d. Jordan River
... Sea of Galilee
to Dead Sea

e. 1967 "Green Line"
... the 1949
armistice lines separating
Israel from its heartland of
Judea-Samaria when Jordanian
forces illegally annexed it. After the
1967 Arab-Israeli war, Israel
regained that land... at which time
the world began referring to Judea and
Samaria as the "West Bank" in order to
try to erase any Jewish connection
to this historically Jewish land!

f. 9 miles wide here
g. Tel Aviv
h. Jerusalem
i. Dead Sea
j. Gaza Strip: 5 miles x 25 miles
The surrounding 22 Arab countries are 640 times larger than tiny Israel yet they expect Israel to turn over all the West Bank, Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and half of Jerusalem... territory they lost after they started the 1967 war!


Unlike Islam's Koran, which commands Muslims to force the entire planet to submit to literal control by Islam, the Jewish Torah promises the children of Israel a modest and reasonable allotment of land. Israel in RED , is a democratic nation 1/19th the size of California, surrounded by 22 hostile Arab/Islamic dictatorships with 640 times her size, 60 times her population and ALL the oil. How dare Arab propagandists call Israel "expansionist!" And how dare anyone believe them! How can Israel, which occupies one-sixth of one percent of the lands called Arab, be responsible for the political dissatisfaction of 22 Arab countries? How can the 13 million Jews in the world (almost 5 million fewer than they were in 1939!) be blamed for the problems of the 300 million Arabs, who have brotherly ties to 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide? Israel is an oasis of Western Democracy and Judeo/Christian morality in the middle of an otherwise totalitarian Arab/Muslim Middle East. For over 55 years since she became a nation in 1948, Israel has sought peaceful coexistence with neighbors dedicated to her destruction. Thus far only Egypt and Jordan have formalized a peace treaty. In reality, these two peace treaties are are questionable.

The Arab assaults and aggressions against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 had nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian terror campaign would itself be easy to suppress today and eradicate if the Middle East conflict were really a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Israel would simply obliterate the terrorists and expel their supporters to Syria and Lebanon. The Middle East war continues because it is really an Arab-Israeli war, not an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is also in large part a war between barbarism and civilization. In many ways an Islamic religious jihad against the Jews.
 
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Missileer
Well done post ... it lays out the reason for the unrest in the Middle East in just a few well chosen paragraphs and points out why the 'fix' isn't going to be as easy as the handwringers and peaceniks believe.

However, standby - you are about to be over-run by the naysayers , betcha ...........betcha ...........betcha ...........
 
i'm just saying you're oversimplifying it. Let's not forget the diplomatic problems which started with the british mandate and the subsequent partition after they left. Try figuring out what the hell was going on there to check why this whole thing started and hasn't ended.
 
How it started? I believe I already posted that in this forums at least once, but one more time won't hurt anything. British Mandate leaves approximately 55% of the territory to the Israeli's and 45% to the Palestinians, the Israeli's accept this agreement, the Palestinians and Arabs reject it, day after british leave the Arabs attack Israel, outnumbered ten to one Israel counter-attacks and defeats the invading Arabs, in the subsequent peace agreement the Israeli's redraw the lines of the British Mandate giving Israel 70% of the land of Palestine, the Arabs accept, Palestinians CHOOSE to leave believing that the Arabs will regroup and destroy Israel, 50 years later Israel still stands and now the Palestinians have realized that the Arabs won't defeat Israel. Oh of course there was a certain terrorist named Yasser Arafat who bottled things up in the Middle East for some 30 odd years, constantly throwing a wrench in the machine everytime the Israeli's and Palestinians were on the verge of a peace settlement. His death should have meant peace in Israel but apparently Arafat wasn't the only one who won't accept any peace settlement that involves an independent Israel.
 
Missileer,there should be one update in the map. That is "Irag",its territory is becoming "red", not "green" at least. If Syria is involved in the coming feature, We can see that the configuration would be the best that the U.S wants to get.

Although surronded by arabic nations in the same "green", Israel looks so small. But arabic world is not far united than they look like,or Israel would have much harder time. There are many underground factors that can not be justified from these simple data.
 
sandy said:
The best way to help Israel is investing in Palestina,not selling arms to Israel.

So, you want to prop up a recognized terrorist run country and starve the only democratic State in the Mid East. Sounds like a sound philosophy, for Iran.

WarMachine said:
"i'm just saying you're oversimplifying it. Let's not forget the diplomatic problems which started with the british mandate and the subsequent partition after they left. Try figuring out what the hell was going on there to check why this whole thing started and hasn't ended."

It's not going to do either of us any good if you don't read what the British mandate was and what became of it. The Arabs refused any of their plans as to partitioning the land. The British realized that the Arabs wanted all of the land so they gave up and dumped the whole mess in the UN's lap. Their map is shown below and you can read what the Arabs thought of the UN below. I have color coded parts of the British efforts and the attitude of the Arab countries. Therein you will read why this started and will not end.

"Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 B.C.E. these first ancient Jews in the Land of Israel [Judea] were overrun and Israel's First Jewish Temple (on Jerusalem's Old City Temple Mount) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem upon the Temple Mount. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!"


"From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain."


"Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!"

"In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now."

transj.jpg


"Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British."


The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British.

Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
T
he 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.


"OnMay 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!"
 
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So, you want to prop up a recognized terrorist run country and starve the only democratic State in the Mid East. Sounds like a sound philosophy, for Iran.
No,no.
I said,make palestinian people rich and bring foundation of terrorism to naughty.
By the way, conflict is in Palestine which continues.
Funds of the ODA year of 100,000,000 dollars Japanese Government pays are provided for towns and villages in Palestine as urgent expense for measures for the unemployed via UNDP.
By the money, about Palestinian 200,000 people is employed a year, and repairing houses destroyed by IDF and forestation destroyed olive fields.
These days,I feel.
The more america critisize Iran, the more Iran's hard core gets power in senate.
Thanks to American policy,now Iranians go to old guard.
 
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