Waffen SS (Moved from the mottos forum) - Page 5




 
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March 24th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdt Matteo
Chukpike, as much as you hate the fact that the Waffen SS were a superior fighting force does not take away from its truth. They committed war crimes as all nations did at the time. What they stood for was rather honourable if you ask me: Loyalty, Honour, Valor.

They were professional soldiers and the reason they are considered "war criminals" is because history is written by the victors. The reason why the Allied nations were never charged with war crimes is for the same reason as above. Don't try to respond with another insult because it will only further your immaturity. There is room for a civilized debate and not for anything else.
"Chukpike, as much as you hate the fact that the Waffen SS were a superior fighting force does not take away from its truth."
1.Where did I ever comment on whether the Waffen SS was good or bad Fighting force? It is irrelevant to the topic. The topic is about their motto.


2. Does not matter whether you think it is OK, honorable, and shows valor to commit war crimes. My opinion is, it is not. Besides the fact you show no instances of their Honor, Valor, Loyalty. What do you base your opinion on?

And has all ready been pointed out:
("Meine Ehre heißt Treue"
Literary it means "My honour is called loyalty" but the meaning is closer "My honour is loyalty"
Motto/saying comes from Hitler's letter to SS kommendant Kurt Daluegelle in 1931. There was sentence-ending "...SS-man, your loyalty is your honour" and Heinrich Himmler took that sentence from letter and came up with that motto.

btw; that motto is forbidden and punishable by law in Germany and Austria even today.) quote Torkku in the Unit Branch Mottos topics.

This "loyalty" was to Hitler and not to Germany.

One thing I have learned from this topic is that all the support for the Waffen SS is coming from people in other countries not Germany. The only German who has responded wanted the "good old days under Hitler".

How does your statement:
"They committed war crimes as all nations did at the time.",
prove the Waffen SS had Honor, Loyalty, or Valor? I guess you see war crimes as Honorable?

Do you even have a clue as to what the words mean?

Anyway allready admitted that, "You guys win! The German Waffen SS were a bunch of Choir Boys and WWII did not happen!"

After lljadw pointed out that, "policy of the Wehrmacht was 10 civilians for 1 dead German".

See News article:
"A German court on Tuesday convicted an 88-year-old of murdering three Dutch civilians as part of a Nazi hit squad during World War II, capping six decades of efforts to bring the former Waffen SS man to justice."
Former Nazi hit man convicted over WWII murders (AP)

Here is an example of Waffen SS Honor, Valor, & Loyalty.
March 24th, 2010  
rattler
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
One thing I have learned from this topic is that all the support for the Waffen SS is coming from people in other countries not Germany. The only German who has responded wanted the "good old days under Hitler".
Mr., I am really looking forward on how you are going to explain where I even came close to expressing such a sentiment, because if you cannot, I expect an apology.

Rattler
March 24th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
Mr., I am really looking forward on how you are going to explain where I even came close to expressing such a sentiment, because if you cannot, I expect an apology.

Rattler
For what? Your profile lists Spain as your country and you seem to support the Waffen SS.
Ollie Garchy is the only person that has responded who's profile shows Germany as his country.
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March 24th, 2010  
Czin
 
 
Wait, are people seriously seeing the Waffen SS as anything but the personal army of elite goons for a madman? And I thought I had seen it all.
March 24th, 2010  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdt Matteo
Very good point and thank you for clarifying. Like all things towards the end of the war (on the German side), things deterioated. The 'top' SS division (Leibstandarte, Das Reich, etc) were very well trained, very motivated and were generally well equipped (not so much in early war when under the command of the Heer).

About the 12th SS, lets not forget they were thrown together in a short period of time and did much more than what the Allies expected a bunch of teenagers to do (led by Ostfront veterans). They may not have been as well trained and 'elite' as the, for example, Leibstandarte, but they performed amazing for what they had.
That things were detiorating ,had several causes :
a shortage of NCO(I think that those who have served ,will confirm that the NCO's are the back-bone of any military unit)
the training was to short
there were to less volunteers:a lot were ordered to volunteer (source :H.Hoehneen Orden unter den Totenkopf)
At the end of the war,even the Leibstandarte was cracking:the German offensive in Hungary (Fruhlingserwachen ) was a failure;comment of Goebbels in his diary:the experienced NCO's were gone .Of-course,this problem was not limited to the WSS,the whole Wehrmacht suffered .
March 24th, 2010  
rattler
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
For what? Your profile lists Spain as your country and you seem to support the Waffen SS.
Ollie Garchy is the only person that has responded who's profile shows Germany as his country.
Ok, you have reached my limit of insults:

- Where ever did I not state that I am German? I showed you the pics of my home town, destroyed by Bomber Harris, I even gave you all the victors deserved "forgive and forget". Do you really believe UK or US bombed Spain?

- I have stated various times on this forum publically my sincere devotion to democracy, stated being anti-nazi, and believing in the values the US showed us as youngsters (and which made me sign up), any quarrels we two have had were just *because* I felt the US was failing to follow up it´s own stated values that they made us Europeans striving for.

- I have various times stated on this forum publically that I support free speech, tolerance, and free exchange of ideas, I also stated several times that - while being not at all anti american - I am probably a liberal from your personal POV, which would ridicule any idea of being close to the ideas our ex Waffen SS would have cherished.

Did you ever read my profile before becoming so severely insulting as to tell me being (or bringing me close to) what I am not? DO you have any respect left for not US people that fought on your side?

I have, with my body, heart and soul, almost 8 years defended your countries´doctrine as part of NATO German forces (accepting that we all Germans would have to die to save your US values, andadditionally givnig hard times to any NAZI I came acrossand that whanted me to call for his "cause"), because I come from a soldiers family and because I felt it was worthwile, and I am*not* for myself or my people going to take more of that **** you are throwing at me and my fellow country men and fellow comrades that went with you guys against any form of dictatorship (SU in my time).

Personally, from your reply to my request for an apology and as you seem to have all the protection of this forum with your insulting attitude, let me tell you that I think you are from my POV a disgrace for any army of whatever nation (let me tell you also that with that attitude I would have had you sacked from my coy faster than you could have counted to one-hundred), and you deserve no more - basically given -respect whatsoever from a soldier of a non-US army.

All you do is spill hate at anybody not follwing your distorted ways of thinking, you are making up facts and ignoe the ones that are presented for a different POVas you like, quite obviously with a large protection from "Higher".

Personally, I have no problem with that and could easily ride it off, but now you have stepped over a line I will not accept: You insulted my people, my nation and my army, after x times insulting me personally, and I will not go along with this any longer.

I will make a bet now, I guess you are not (or have not ever been) a soldier., your ways of behaviour have nothing to do anymore with "family" (of soldiers) banter that I find entertaining, or with simply difference of ideas.

I am going to announce this what I think publically, and also pass it to Redneck personally (whom I see fairly imparcial, but who for some reason lets you insult ppl away as you like), and I will delete my account here, sorry to have molested you.

Rattler

EDIT: Cannot seem to delete my account, forum gods plz do it for me. R.
March 24th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
Ok, you have reached my limit of insults:

- Where ever did I not state that I am German? I showed you the pics of my home town, destroyed by Bomber Harris, I even gave you all the victors deserved "forgive and forget". Do you really believe UK or US bombed Spain?
No the Luftwaffe did that to support Franco.
I can only go by your profile. You list your country as Spain. If you are embarrassed or ashamed and feel you have to lie about your nationality thats your problem. Maybe people put where the live, instead of their Nationality, maybe Redleg should add to profile. Nationality and place of residence

As far as your Dresden spiel, I didn't read it. Why? Because it had nothing to do with the Topic. It was you just trying to justify the sins of the Waffen SS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler
- I have stated various times on this forum publicly my sincere devotion to democracy, stated being anti-nazi, and believing in the values the US showed us as youngsters (and which made me sign up), any quarrels we had were just *because* I felt us was failing to follo wup it´s own stated values that they mad us Europeans striving for.

- I have various times stated on this forum publically that I support free speech, tolerance, and free exchange of ideas, I also stated several times that - while being not at all anti american - I am probably a liberal from your personal POV, which would ridicule any idea of being close to the ideas our Waffen SS would have cherished.

Did you ever read my profile before becoming so severely insulting as to tell me beng what I am not? DO you have any respect left ofr people that fought on your side?

I have, with my body, heart and soul, almost 8 years defended your countries´doctrine as part of NATO German forces (accepting that we aall Germans would have to die to save your US values and givng hard times to any NAZI I came across), because I come from a soldiers family and because I felt it was worthwile, and I am*not* for myself or my people going to take more of that **** you are throwing at me and my fellow country men and fellow comrades that went with you guys against any form of dictatorship (SU in my time).

Personally, from your reply to my request for an apology and as you seem to have all the protection of this forum with your insulting attitude, let me tell you that I think you are from my POV a disgrace for any army of whatever nation (let me tell you also that with that attitude I would have had you sacked from my coy faster than you could have counted to one-hundred), and you deserve no more - basically given -respect whatsoever from a soldier of a non-US army.

All you do is spill hate at anybody not follwing your distorted ways of thinking, you are making up facts and ignoe the ones that are presented for a different POVas you like, quite obviously with a large protection from "Higher".

Personally, I have no problem with that and could easily ride it off, but now you have stepped over a line I will not accept: You insulted my people, my nation and my army, after x times insulting me personally, and I will not go along with this any longer.

I will make a bet now, I guess you are not (or have not ever been) a soldier., your ways of behaviour have nothing to do anymore with "family" (of soldiers) banter that I find entertaining, or with simply difference of ideas.

I am going to announce this what I think publically, and also pass it to Redneck personally (whom I see fairly imparcial, but who for some reason lets you insult ppl away as you like), and I will delete my account here, sorry to have molested you.

Rattler
You are goofy. I made two statements at the beginning of this thread;
1. "If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat." Pertaining to the Waffen SS only
2. "Also their loyalty was to Hitler and not the country. I guess if you are into fanatical dictators you could appreciate the motto."

Again as it pertains to the Waffen SS only. You and others have continually attacked anyone that would suggest the Waffen SS were not Noble, Honorable, Loyal. Well I showed they were not choir boys.



Even your last post is just a long drawn out attempt to cry your way out of your statements.

I do appreciate your apology.
March 24th, 2010  
rattler
 
 
As you believe, sir!

And, though you do not deserve it, out of courtesy

Bye, and thanks for the fish!

Rattler
March 24th, 2010  
A Can of Man
 
 
Removed by Mod.
March 24th, 2010  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
Well I showed they were not choir boys.
All you've successfully done is insult good posters.

It's people like you that are killing these forums.
 


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