The Other Guy
Spam King
So you're saying that that people are stupid and the government should decide things for them. Sounds an awful lot like a monarchy/dictatorship to me...
US Supreme Court Rules on DC vs Heller (2nd Amendment Case) at 1000 HRS EST
AikiRooster
Tube Monkey USMC
That's not what I said, re-read the post.
The Other Guy
Spam King
Did.
I guess he couldn't participate as long as he was in NYC. He can participate now in Paris, but not in NYC. Seems as reasonable as some gun regulations.
I guess he couldn't participate as long as he was in NYC. He can participate now in Paris, but not in NYC. Seems as reasonable as some gun regulations.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Why should I have my rights restricted because some idiot in another city in my State doesn't like firearms? We should restrict music and loud muscle cars because I don't like them then by that logic. We're talking about a Constitutional Right. A right was just tried by the Supreme Court because some Citizens in our Nation's Capital had them restricted.
South Florida has a population of about 6 Million. We have far more firearms, less restriction, and conceal carry and we have a far lower crime rate then NYC. So don't try that....
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The Other Guy
Spam King
You also have a lot of senior citizens... and weather can affect people, making them feel more desperate. (i.e. sucide rate in Seattle). And I'm betting the weather's better in Miami than it is in NYC...
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
So does NYC... what's you're point. Come down to Miami.... you'll see how many senior citizens we really have.
mmarsh
Active member
------------------------------------------------------
That's why we have city ordinances. And gun-bans with city limits are hardly new. Most towns in the Wild West had them, Wyatt Earp was famous for his anti-gun policies when he was sheriff. No one is forcing you to live within the city. You can easily and cheaply move to Westchester, Long Island, even New Jersey were you will find gun regulations more relaxed.
Secondly the 2nd Amendment is outmoded, even Justice Scalia suggested it. You are applying 1789 logic into 2008, it doesn't work.
First of all South Florida isn't a city, its an area. There is no city called South Florida. South Florida has a lower crime rate than NYC? Really? The Cocaine Import Capital of America as a lower crime rate than NYC? Thats a bit dubious...
I dont to pick on you, but once again you make wildly inaccurate statements that have absolute no basis in truth to attempt to justify your postion. Doing so, only makes the arguement weaker, not stronger.
Here are the Homicide figures for 2006 (S.Florida, then New York):
http://southfloridacrime.blogspot.com/2007/10/murder-rates-in-south-florida-above.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/11/23/newyork.homicide.ap/
Summery:
So in Homicides in South Florida for 2006 we have 883 murders (a 26 percent increase from 2005). In NYC for the same year we have less than 500 (the lowest in 40 years). And I could show you the same for other violent crimes.
Last point: NYC does not that have that many seniors as you imagine, for most its too expensive and weather is too extreme.
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5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
The worst crime against working people is a company which fails to operate at a profit."
-- Samuel Gompers
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles ... that we are unable to think about reality."
-- Bill Clinton, USA Today, 11 March 93, pg. 2A
"The last time I checked, the Constitution said 'of the people, by the people and for the people'. That's what the Declaration of Independence says."
-- Reuters News Agency
** Note: actually those words are in neither of those documents, but part of The Gettysburg Address by Abraham Lincoln
"We are taking the law and bending it as far as we can to capture a whole new class of guns [to ban]"
-- Jose Cerda, Los Angeles Times, 22 Oct. 1997, Mr. Cerda was named as a White House Official who specializes in gun control
"Gun registration is not enough."
-- Janet Reno, U.S. Attorney General, Associated Press 10 Dec 1993
"I want to make it as hard as possible. Gun owners would have to be evaluated by how they scored on written and firing tests, and have to pass the tests in order to own a gun. And I would tax the guns, bullets and the license itself very heavily."
-- Jocelyn Elders, U.S. Surgeon General, Mother Jones magazine, Jan/Feb '94
"Armas para que?" ("Guns, for what?")
-- Fidel Castro, a response to a Cuban citizens who said the people might need to keep their guns, after Castro announced strict gun control in Cuba
"I have made it considerably tougher for residents to get handgun permits."
-- Joseph McNamara, Police Chief, San Jose, CA, in his book Safe and Sane, 1984
"The second article of amendment (Second Amendment) to the Constitution of the United States is repealed."
-- U.S. House Joint Resolution 438 introduced 11 March 1992 by Congressman Owens, D-NY
" ... we could tax them [firearms] out of existence."
-- Daniel Patrick Moynihan, U.S. Senator, Washington Post, 4 Nov 93
"If it were up to me we'd ban them all [firearms]."
-- Mel Reynolds, U.S. Congressman, CNN Crossfire, 9 Dec 93
"We're going to have to take this one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily - given the political realities - going to be very modest. Right now, though, we'd be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. Our ultimate goal - total control of all guns- is going to take time ... The final problem is to make the possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition - except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs and licensed gun collectors - totally illegal."
-- Nelson T. Shields III, Founder of Handgun Control, Inc., New Yorker Magazine, p. 57-58, 26 Jul 1976
"There is no personal right to be armed for private purposes unrelated to the service in a well regulated militia."
-- Sarah Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, Inc., Richmond Times-Dispatch, 6 Jun 97, pg. 6
"We must reverse this psychology (of needing guns for home defense). WE can do it by passing a law that says anyone found in possession a handgun except a legitimate officer of the law goes to jail-period!"
-- Carl Rowan, Washington DC Syndicated Columnist, 1981 article
" ... as long as authorities leave this society awash in drugs and guns, I will protect my family."
-- Carl Rowan, 1988 article titled "At Least They're Not Writing My Obituary"
"Men possess handguns in order to compensate for sexual dysfunction."
-- Dr. Joyce Brothers, Psychiatrist, TV personality
** her husband is among NYC elite that has been issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun
"Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority. Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation ... Whoever willfully or negligently violates the provisions ... will be punished with imprisonment and a fine.
-- Nazi Law, Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons, 11 Nov 1938, German Minister of the Interior
-- Samuel Gompers
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans to legitimately own handguns and rifles ... that we are unable to think about reality."
-- Bill Clinton, USA Today, 11 March 93, pg. 2A
"The last time I checked, the Constitution said 'of the people, by the people and for the people'. That's what the Declaration of Independence says."
-- Reuters News Agency
** Note: actually those words are in neither of those documents, but part of The Gettysburg Address by Abraham Lincoln
"We are taking the law and bending it as far as we can to capture a whole new class of guns [to ban]"
-- Jose Cerda, Los Angeles Times, 22 Oct. 1997, Mr. Cerda was named as a White House Official who specializes in gun control
"Gun registration is not enough."
-- Janet Reno, U.S. Attorney General, Associated Press 10 Dec 1993
"I want to make it as hard as possible. Gun owners would have to be evaluated by how they scored on written and firing tests, and have to pass the tests in order to own a gun. And I would tax the guns, bullets and the license itself very heavily."
-- Jocelyn Elders, U.S. Surgeon General, Mother Jones magazine, Jan/Feb '94
"Armas para que?" ("Guns, for what?")
-- Fidel Castro, a response to a Cuban citizens who said the people might need to keep their guns, after Castro announced strict gun control in Cuba
"I have made it considerably tougher for residents to get handgun permits."
-- Joseph McNamara, Police Chief, San Jose, CA, in his book Safe and Sane, 1984
"The second article of amendment (Second Amendment) to the Constitution of the United States is repealed."
-- U.S. House Joint Resolution 438 introduced 11 March 1992 by Congressman Owens, D-NY
" ... we could tax them [firearms] out of existence."
-- Daniel Patrick Moynihan, U.S. Senator, Washington Post, 4 Nov 93
"If it were up to me we'd ban them all [firearms]."
-- Mel Reynolds, U.S. Congressman, CNN Crossfire, 9 Dec 93
"We're going to have to take this one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily - given the political realities - going to be very modest. Right now, though, we'd be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. Our ultimate goal - total control of all guns- is going to take time ... The final problem is to make the possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition - except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs and licensed gun collectors - totally illegal."
-- Nelson T. Shields III, Founder of Handgun Control, Inc., New Yorker Magazine, p. 57-58, 26 Jul 1976
"There is no personal right to be armed for private purposes unrelated to the service in a well regulated militia."
-- Sarah Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control, Inc., Richmond Times-Dispatch, 6 Jun 97, pg. 6
"We must reverse this psychology (of needing guns for home defense). WE can do it by passing a law that says anyone found in possession a handgun except a legitimate officer of the law goes to jail-period!"
-- Carl Rowan, Washington DC Syndicated Columnist, 1981 article
" ... as long as authorities leave this society awash in drugs and guns, I will protect my family."
-- Carl Rowan, 1988 article titled "At Least They're Not Writing My Obituary"
"Men possess handguns in order to compensate for sexual dysfunction."
-- Dr. Joyce Brothers, Psychiatrist, TV personality
** her husband is among NYC elite that has been issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun
"Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority. Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew's possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation ... Whoever willfully or negligently violates the provisions ... will be punished with imprisonment and a fine.
-- Nazi Law, Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons, 11 Nov 1938, German Minister of the Interior
major liability
Active member
Mmarsh if anyone around me doesn't want me having a gun that's their problem. They can go cry, as I value the opinions and feelings of a cockroach over theirs. I've never and will never do anything to harm them. But I sure as hell will never give up my firearms if the "community" wills it. I refuse to give up my weapons just because it makes people uncomfortable. I don't even interact with more than a select few of these folks anyways, so what I do doesn't affect them at all.
People in New York City are even worse. I lived there for 5 years. Some of the most stuck-up people I've ever had the displeasure of living next to.
Honestly, it's like living in a European country.
People in New York City are even worse. I lived there for 5 years. Some of the most stuck-up people I've ever had the displeasure of living next to.
Honestly, it's like living in a European country.
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mmarsh
Active member
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Really? and how many European countries have you lived in? Frankly I find Europeans are much more polite. I say this because I live in one and I used to regularly shuttle between the UK, BE, and NL for business.
The Dutch are extremely friendly, as are the Swedes.
For example, comparing people to cockroaches because they disagree would be considered bad form in Europe.
I would say your attitude is that of the locals that dislike people from the big city. Believe me I have heard the exact same arguments from French people against Parisians, English people against Londoners, Dutch people against those that live in Amsterdam, people in rural Indiana against both people Dayton, Cincinatti, and Indianapolis. Country people always think city people are rude, let me tell you I lived in the country too for 4 years in the Mid-West, contrary to the advertising, I didn't find the people so friendly.
But back to subject:
Well you may not have a choice, if a community bans handguns are places whether you agree with it or not you are violating the law. The Heller case does not apply to NYC, as DC and NYC don't have the same laws. Try it in NYC without a permit and the cops will arrest you if they catch you.
As I keep saying, its a matter of location. I have no problems with people in the Suburbs or countryside, but they have no business in a metropolis. And also as I said, nobody who lives in the metropolis wants them.
How many people do you see in the city demanding firearms? All I am saying is let communities police themselves.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Do you believe laws should be changed to suit the standards and requirements of the society they are applied to?
If no how can you support or uphold any laws that are not directly referenced to constitution (traffic safety etc.), if yes then how can the second amendment not be up for modernisation if that is the will of the people.
As I understand it (and I may be wrong as this is my interpretation of limited data) the 2nd Amendment was formulated because the USA did not have or want to have a standing army which it now does therefore it could be argued that there is no longer a need for a militia and as a consequence the 2nd Amendment is effectively irrelevant.
I would also like to point out that surely the name "Amendment" itself leads to the understanding that it is not set in stone if it was it would probably be called a commandment.
For the record I am a "controlled" supporter although I could be a "restricted" candidate depending how they are defined and I don't see why the 1st, 4th or 8th Amendments would need changing unless they are no longer applicable.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
No, it was to give the people the power to stand up to all powers, even their own government to be free of tyranny.
Therefore I see it valid now just as it was two hundred years ago.
Therefore I see it valid now just as it was two hundred years ago.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
But that's not what the Amendment says it says (and hopefully this is the correct wording)... "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
If a militia is no longer necessary because its role is now carried out by a standing army then surely the Amendment is no longer valid in anything more than spirit.
major liability
Active member
"Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - George Washington
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
There we have it.
That's what it was for.
That's what it was for.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Interesting, Patrick Henry said something similar however once again they said all this 200+ years ago and the world has changed a lot in that time, therefore what needs to be determined is the validity of the amendment today in terms of its intent at the time of writing.
I am not entirely convinced you can split the two points and just keep selling the "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." without understanding the intent of the first part "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State,"
major liability
Active member
Technically the definition of a militia is every armed man 18-45.
The only problem today is there are _way_ too many people. Makes crimes of passion more likely.
The only problem today is there are _way_ too many people. Makes crimes of passion more likely.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
§ 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Section two of US Code 311 clearly states that the militia is still alive and well. The organized Militia is the National Guard. The Unorganized Militia is the people.
As for a Standing Army, read the Federalist Papers. It clearly states a need for both a Standing Army and a Militia. The Standing Army was to be staffed of combat veteran Officers and NCOs. The Militia was to be the rank and file of the Standing Army and also the "first responders" to any conflict. Since the Militia is an Area unit. The Militia would know better of locations in which to defend and attack. The Standing Army was designed to be a national active duty force but not one of enough force to cause a coup. Hence the Militia was created as the counter point of the Standing Army.
Also the Founding Fathers of this nation believed that an armed society with the same basic combat effectiveness of a infantry soldier would provide a counter point against a Despotic Government. Remember.... the Founding Fathers just defeated a Major World Power and it all started with a group of armed civilians. They believed that keeping the people armed would prevent the US Federal Government or State Governments from becoming despotic.
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
Section two of US Code 311 clearly states that the militia is still alive and well. The organized Militia is the National Guard. The Unorganized Militia is the people.
As for a Standing Army, read the Federalist Papers. It clearly states a need for both a Standing Army and a Militia. The Standing Army was to be staffed of combat veteran Officers and NCOs. The Militia was to be the rank and file of the Standing Army and also the "first responders" to any conflict. Since the Militia is an Area unit. The Militia would know better of locations in which to defend and attack. The Standing Army was designed to be a national active duty force but not one of enough force to cause a coup. Hence the Militia was created as the counter point of the Standing Army.
Also the Founding Fathers of this nation believed that an armed society with the same basic combat effectiveness of a infantry soldier would provide a counter point against a Despotic Government. Remember.... the Founding Fathers just defeated a Major World Power and it all started with a group of armed civilians. They believed that keeping the people armed would prevent the US Federal Government or State Governments from becoming despotic.
major liability
Active member
The Europeans I met in person in Lithuania and Germany were very pleasant. But the ones I've conversed with over the internet certainly don't reflect this in the least.
A bit of an exaggeration, as I wouldn't have even bothered posting a reply if I didn't worry about their misguided opinions... Not comparing the people themselves to cockroaches, just emphasizing how little I care if they want me to have firearms or not.mmarsh said:
This is true everywhere, but the thing is I am not a country boy. I was raised in the city of Pittsburgh and later Brooklyn, though I admit I much prefer the rural surroundings of my current home. Even when you go over the border into Connecticut, the people seem easier to talk to and less concerned with appearances. It's not just a city thing; it's a New York thing.mmarsh said:
Edit: Apologies for the off-topic post.
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