US Fires on Iraqi's (Associated Press)

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GuyontheRight

Active member
From
http://www.military.com/NewsContent?file=FL_fire_042903

FALLUJAH, Iraq - American soldiers opened fire on Iraqi protesters in a town west of Baghdad after being shot at by some in the crowd, a U.S. officer said Tuesday. The director of the local hospital said 13 people were killed and 75 injured.

The shooting took place Monday night in the town of Fallujah, 30 miles west of Baghdad.

Col. Arnold Bray of the 82nd Airborne Division, who gave the U.S. account of the clash, said at least seven Iraqis were hit by gunfire but could not confirm the reported deaths.

Dr. Ahmed Ghanim al-Ali, director of Fallujah General Hospital, said there were 13 dead, including three boys under 11 years old. He said his medical crews were shot at when they went to retrieve the injured, which he said numbered 75 people.

U.S. troops in the town were headquartered in a schoolhouse, and some in the crowd fired on the schoolhouse, Bray said. The al-Jazeera television station, quoting local residents, said the U.S. troops opened fire after someone threw a rock at the school.

Local Iraqis said an anti-American demonstration took place Monday by students between the ages of 5 and 20 to get the soldiers to leave the school so classes could resume Tuesday.

Bray said there were infiltrators in the crowd, including some who were armed and on nearby rooftops.

"Which kind of schoolboys carry AK-47s?" Bray said.

Residents said the shooting continued for at least 30 minutes.

Edtesam Shamsudeim, 37, said her 45-year-old brother died in the gunfire. She was shot in the leg and her husband was wounded.

"We were sitting in our house. When the shooting started, my husband tried to close the door to keep the children in, and he was shot," she said at the hospital, sitting in a chair with a bandaged leg, surrounded by some of her children. Their clothes stained with bloody handprints.

"Americans are criminals," she said.

U.S. Central Command in Qatar said it had no immediate comment on the clash.

Outside the school Tuesday afternoon, people chanted for U.S. forces to leave Iraq. "Go, go USA!" they said in Arabic, adding some English at the end: "Go away!"

Thousands of distraught people were attending funerals for the victims Tuesday, al-Jazeera reported.

Sound Off.....Should the U.S. just leave and let Iraq re-build themselves? Join the discussion.
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Sound off folks, what do you think about this latest incident, should the US back of their Rules of Engagment just to avoid potentially harmfull incidents like this?
 
It is very difficult to comment on a situation like this..

U.S. troops in the town were headquartered in a schoolhouse, and some in the crowd fired on the schoolhouse, Bray said. The al-Jazeera television station, quoting local residents, said the U.S. troops opened fire after someone threw a rock at the school.
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I DO believe that the US soldiers can hear and see the difference between a bullet and a rock.
Most ROE's are quite clear on this point, "the use of deadly force (weapons) is authorized if your (or someone in your units) life is directly threatened.
And I would certainly feel threatened if someone shoots at me..

Bray said there were infiltrators in the crowd, including some who were armed and on nearby rooftops.
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This is unfortunatelly a "normal" scenario in certain muslim/arabic countries.. Some extreme elements, who want's media coverage at all cost, takes advantage of the weak and innocent (children/women/older people), and blaims the other part for being the "criminals".

I know many examples of this from working in South Lebanon.

This is an extremely difficult situation for the officer/NCO in charge.
What do you do if someone shoots at you from a crowd mainly consisting of women and children??
Your life is certainly threatened, but you take a high risk injuring or killing innocent people if you shoot back.
If you do shoot to defend your own life, and you accidentally shoot a child, who's to blame?? You, or the one shooting from the crowd??

I would certainly say that it's the criminals hiding in the crowd thats to blame.
But for a person watching the poor mother crying live on al-Jazeera, and who did not experienced the situation, it's easy to blame the US troops...

But again, this is an extremely difficult situation.
If you do accidentally hit an innocent child, then "All hell could break loose"...
So I do believe, and have experienced that an absolute minimum of force must be used in a situation like this.
An AK-47 pointed in your direction doesn't always mean that's someone is trying to kill you, in many situations it can mean the same as us in the Western World showing the good old finger...

He said his medical crews were shot at when they went to retrieve the injured, which he said numbered 75 people.
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But in this particular situation I do think that shooting back was the right thing to do.
The ROE is quite clear here!
But be sure to hit only what your aiming for, and you don't have to empty your whole ammo clip at once....

I do believe that the officer in charge of this situation did the right thing!
 
This concept is almost the exact same as shown in the fictional movie Rules Of Engagment, in which marines fire at a crowd in Yeman after taking sniper fire. It' alwasy a difficult situation I would assume, and I do agree the commander in this situation did do the right thing, its just, when dealing in the arab world, is anything you do the right thing?
 
"Myself against my brother. Myself and my brother against my cousin. But Myself, my brother and my cousin against the foreigner."
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This Arabian proverb says it all......
 
Sure does, anyway, when did you serve in Southern Lebanon? I know the Syrians tended to inhabit the North, but have you had any experience with them?
 
GuyontheRight said:
Sure does, anyway, when did you serve in Southern Lebanon? I know the Syrians tended to inhabit the North, but have you had any experience with them?
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I served in 1998, in South Lebanon.

Did not see much of the Syrians, my battalion was stationed in the ICA (Israeli Controlled Area).
So we saw mostly Lebanese and Israelis there.
 
I'm coming in kind of late on this one, but i feel very strongly on this; all Americans are criminals.
(
"Americans are criminals," she said.
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)

Just kidding ;). But seriously, the answer to your question, guyontheright, is that no, nothing we do is right by the Arabs (the mideast ones, of course, not the whole race), except when we die. I took a counter-terrorism class through my ROTC program, and we had to study the history and beliefs of way too many terrorist groups, most of them (surprise, surprise) being Islamic fundamentalists and middle-east based. The main thing the all agreed on was that western culture and western people deserved to die.

On the original issue, I think that, if anything, our ROE are too light, what we need to do for riot control over there is use armor like the Israelis do (or at least like the news makes it look like they do, you'd probably know more about that, Redleg), then they can throw all the damn rocks (or even 7.62 rounds) that they want, just get it out of their systems. And just have sweeper crews of mechanized infantry come through and anyone in the crowd with a rifle goes to prison or dies in place.

I wonder why nobody takes my advice, it's great stuff haha.[/quote]
 
I think that, if anything, our ROE are too light...And just have sweeper crews of mechanized infantry come through and anyone in the crowd with a rifle goes to prison or dies in place.
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Granted, Im not in the military, but I disagree on this issue. Regardless of what the Arabs are doing to us, the region is to important to jeopardize in some major "bloodbath" (The Kind the Arab and Even US Media would portray it as at least) The Israeli’s aren’t getting any parades throughout the Middle East, and still are getting daily attacks put up against them, so I don’t see using there tactics for US interests a good idea, partially because it will only strengthen the Hamas in it's goals to link us with Israel.

Lastly, its a dangerous proposition to be running around as mechanized infantry in urban areas, regardless of what many may say. I know for a fact, many of the Marine Amphibious vehicles we use are not immune at all the RPGs. The problem with going in with M1A1s is that there too much a symbol of American power, like the Israeli Merkava (Spelling?), and would hurt our public image over there too much. And by no means would I order a line of infantry into an Arab urban area, we even saw this in Black Hawk down with our Rangers and special forces, just imagine what they would do to young regular infantry soldiers.

I’ve got to stick to my gut on this one, and go with the old PYOPS phrase;
"Capture their minds and the hearts and souls will follow"
 
Yeah, I wasn't really serious, we do need to change our ROE's tomake them a bit harsher, but in generl it's a good thing I'm not in charge of doing it, I'm not the most open-minded or understanding of people, and when I see them cheering in the streets when our people die, I kind of flip out. Basically it's a damn good thing there are more levelheaded people than myself in command.
 
Hey, I know what you mean, I flip out to, I find myself cursing while watching the news every night, but somhow, you see some of these people, and cant help but wondor about who they are beyond the rifle. I don't know, Ive just always been good at humanizing things I guess :roll:
 
minerydder-cutout.jpg

Picture taken from scandinavian armor: http://www.haaland.info/norway/army/
The ultimate in crowd control!
The Norwegian MRPV Mine clearer.... :twisted:
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Hm, just a little joke (if you didn't understand that....) :D


I don't think that armoured vehicles works in a crowd control situation at all, at least not in urban areas.
In Norway we are training our troops, wich we are going to send abroad,
a lot in crowd control techniques.
The key here, we think, is to use the least possible amount of force.
No weapons, clubs/shields only, (and maybe a watercannon or two :) ) is enough in most situations.
A well diciplined squad/platoon dressed in riot control gear can be very effective, if they do exactly what they are supposed to do.
One wrong hit with a club can be disastrous in a crowd control situation.
We have had great success in Kosovo with our crowd control techniques.

I think that many countries, including Israel, is using to much force from the beginning, and therefore causing the situation to get out of hand...
Resulting in the "bloodbaths" that media do talk about..

Another "problem" with crowd control is media...
You will at least have 10 cameras pointing at you at all times in a peacekeeping/enforcing mission, and specially in a crowd control situation..
One "wrong" move from one soldier, and the whole world will know about it... And you can guarantee that they will be focusing on the woman/child who is injured/killed, and NOT on the 4 persons behind them who started to shoot/throw rocks etc. at our soldiers first.


And yet another thing is the muslim/Arab culture..
My experience is that they have a very high sence of "honor."
If you do dishonor one, (it doesn't really have to be your fault), then they must defend their honor, and not back out..
A small incident can easilly become a major disaster in a case like this.


And I do agree with you GuyOntheRight: in most situations "winning their hearts and minds" is the best thing
 
they deserve it

I do admit that not all people of Iraq dserve to die, but most civilians are killing more and more americans everyday. The official ruler is gone. They still think that we are the evil-doers. They don't understand that we're just trying to help them and make a better life for them and make sure that they are traeted equally. As humans!
 
accident

Accidents do happen. The marines just thought that a person in the crowd was shooting at them. The only way to protect themselves is to shoot back in the direction fire is coming from. The american man is not a criminal he is a symbol of justice.
"you can kill, but you can't negotiate. In Somelia killing is negotiation."
-"BlackHawk Down"
 
ha

MrmarineJ wrote:
but most civilians are killing
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You think "most", i doubt it....But basiclly crowd situations are very diffacult...Rock can kill 2, if you throw enough of them.
 
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