Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners? - Page 7




 
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Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
 
June 9th, 2007  
bulldogg
 
 
Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
Hopefully our Moderator from Israel, Sherman, will grace this thread with his thoughts... before you're all blown to hades on a shutter.

DOH!!!
June 9th, 2007  
Padre
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The Brits in effect gave away that which was not theirs to give.
That is correct but the recipients of the "gift"; owned the gift anyway and should have recieved more - what we now call Jordan and Syria. A few neutron bombs can rectify that mistake however.

Interestingly, a number of territorial problems are British made - in fact - was it Britain that taped a few sworn-enemies together after WWI and called it "Iraq?"
June 9th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Padre, for the life of me, I can't see how the Jews of Europe "owned" Palestine, I'm not saying that they didn't, but it seems highly unlikely to me. As I said in an earlier post, "These people had been living in Europe for centuries". They had far more claim on their adoptive countries than Palestine. To my way of thinking Palestine should have been returned to those who ruled it prior to the arrival of the Brits.

As for Iraq, I totally agree. Very similar to Yugoslavia. A time bomb waiting to happen.

I dunno, but to me, much of the problem seems to come down to the mentality of the persons living in the affected areas. What is now Germany, was only a collection of Duchys and Principalities in the 1800s, they seemed to unite without too much trouble.

All of the above not withstanding, I see this as a moral issue. Given that this all occurred after the war, I would have hoped that humanity would have learned something from our errors of the past. No group should have been allowed to just march into a country and displace the inhabitants without any form of compensation. If they do they should expect some form of violent backlash.
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Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
June 9th, 2007  
Padre
 
 
When I lived in Israel I was spat at by Jews. I'll never forget one Hasidic kid, all dressed in blacks with curls dangling under the boiler hat, came up to me and my guest - a Carmelite priest who I was showing the Western Wall, and he drew back in his throat and let one fly missing us by centimetres. I refrained from kicking the crap out of him and blessed him instead. And I was roughed up at BG airport in and out of Tel Aviv. - all presumably because I was a Catholic Priest.

Anyway, if anyone could hold a grudge against Jews I could but I don't and I defend their right to Israel - and more - because I recognise they were kicked out of their land and sent to Europe. They didn't go on a holiday to Europe for the Spainsh weather, the French food or the German beer - they got booted out though some managed to stay and survive in Judea. I'm all in favour of a displaced people returning to the location from which they were displaced no matter who they are. On the religious aspect of this conflict, Islam is several thousand years junior to Judiasm and so the "dome of the rock" on the site of the "older" Jewish Temple is a provocative trophy that should be blown up.

Back to topic: Beware of Islam's slow but sure ascendency in Western countries to the point where in three to four generations hence, their MP's and Congressmen will want Islamic or Islamic friendly rules legislated upon the people - and fair enough if the majority want it - but if today's Westerners who are the majority in Western countries want a home - their current home - and want Western-Judaic-Christian culture preserved for future generations in UK, USA, Europe, Australia, then they better watch out now and not tomorrow. Does that mean ban muslims from immigrating? I think yes. Does that mean expelling current muslims? Not sure on that one but I'm warm to the idea. Seeing a car sticker on a car in Melbourne a few months ago bearing the photo of Osama bin laden and a knife dripping blood through the sybols of the Star of David and a cross full of middle eastern youth feed my prejudice. I could add to the anecdotes where we're heading for a real clash of civilisations but not some where far away but in our own Aussie backyard.
June 9th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Forgiveness is a wonderful thing and admire your humility in granting it to those who have so sorely tried your goodwill.

I am a lesser man in that respect in that I may be prepared to let past wrongs be overlooked at times, but I have a long memory for such things.

About the time of the Six Day War, I was very much in favour of the Jews and felt very sorry for the way that the remainder of the world had stood by and allowed the Holocaust to occur. I must admit that I had not looked at the history of the new Jewish state in any depth, only being aware of the fact that the local Arabs were giving them a bit of stick at every opportunity, so when the Jews hit back I was all in favour, and i guess that is where it would have ended for me.

Then slowly I became aware of a second side to all of this, with the Jews treating the Israeli Arabs as second class citizens with plenty of occurrences such as you suffered, with those who seemingly professed to be the most religious being the worst whilst Israeli Police and Military stood by and did nothing to protect those being assaulted, abused and stoned.

It was at this time I first made the connection to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis. Old men being bullied and pushed to the ground, women and children being taunted and abused at check points by the military, the similarities were just too strong to ignore.

Since that time, with the proliferation of phone cameras and the events in the Gaza Strip etc., it has become impossible to ignore.

I do not disagree with your thoughts on displaced persons having a right to return to their homeland, however they cannot just move in with bulldozers and displace others who have lived in towns and villages for many hundreds of years, this is the 21st century and I would have hoped that humanity had advanced from the attitudes of medieval times that the Jews are displaying in and around Israel.

Many of my ancestors left the miserable coal pit villages of Northumberland and Durham to escape the grinding poverty and death bought about by the laws and employers of that time, but if all of the descendants of those who migrated at that time arrived in Durham now and started just pushing people out of their homes and villages, I doubt that we would last very long.

I feel that there is no moral or legal precedent for the way in which the Jews are treating the Arabs of Israel and adjoining nations, other than that of the Nazi era.

It does nothing to make me proud of my Jewish heritage.

My thoughts on Muslims in Australia who wish to change our lifestyle is another subject that is perhaps better left untouched.
June 9th, 2007  
Del Boy
 
Senojekips.

I am not banging heads with you any further on the subject of your proud heritage, in which you appear to have little other than personal interest.

It is only because of the needs of the present that it is important not brush history under the carpet, convenient as it may be. But history cannot be denied try as hard as you may.

As i said last post, I am finished on this one, i have said my piece.

you have had no whinging from me, but an explanation of the power and determination of Israelis to defend themselves as well as they can.

I detect that it is this strength which gets up your nose.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, well founded or not, and I understand that often, in such circumstances, facts are inconvenient.

Why you say I wish to cling to the past I cannot understand, wasn't it your investigation of your heritage that was put up as argument?

My debate interest is in bare truth, but if all hards facts are whinging what the hell. Why should I waste my time ?

FIN
June 9th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
[quote] I detect that it is this strength which gets up your nose. Why should it get up my nose, It affects me in no way whatsoever. Also there are much more powerful countries and I have no beef with them. well,... not because of their military power anyway.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, I am that. well founded or not, and I understand that often, in such circumstances, facts are inconvenient. Not for me as I have used them to support my argument.

Why you say I wish to cling to the past I cannot understand, wasn't it your investigation of your heritage that was put up as argument? Your constant referal to the Jews alleged "historical" right to return to Palestine. I have found my heritage but I have not let it distort my views on what is morally right or wrong, I have moved on. (I have not let my new found Jewish heritage distort my view of the truth)

My debate interest is in bare truth, but if all hards facts are whinging what the hell. Why should I waste my time ? Facts are great, but your interpretation of them supports what will one day be seen as crimes against humanity, therefore I beg to differ.

But that's just my view. I and will be, so long as I draw breath, or see a genuine effort being made by Israel to become a responsible citizen of the world in relation to their treatment of the Arabs.
June 10th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Even moderate Israeli MPs are aware of the way in which the world views their immoral actions.

Quote:
Haaretz, May 23, 2004:
"At the end of the day they will kick us out of the United Nations, try those responsible in the International court in the hague, and no one will talk to us"

Israeli Justice Minister, Josef Lapid.


http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DG
June 10th, 2007  
Gator
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Even moderate Israeli MPs are aware of the way in which the world views their immoral actions.



http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DG
I believe the United Nations does want to talk to Israel though, because the Nation-State of Israel is currently in violation of a laundry list of United Nations Resolutions (more than the number Saddam found himself in violation of) and Israel has illegal WMD...... but, as the Government of Israel has refused to withdraw from Jerusalem, expulsion from the United Nations may in the end be the action taken, as Israel's acceptance into the United Nations hinged in part on Jerusalem remaining under United Nations control, as per United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194.

As for a Trial.... I'm still waiting for the day when all those responsibile for the attack on the USS Liberty are brought to Justice, so I won't be holding my breath in regards to any International Court for new crimes.
June 10th, 2007  
senojekips
 
 
Gator, I hope that it never comes to dragging persons before the courts. I would much rather see the Israelis become responsible members of the human race.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barrier violates international law
By PETER LIPPMAN
GUEST COLUMNIST
This week the International Court of Justice is meeting at The Hague to consider the legality of the "separation wall" that Israel is building in the West Bank. During the hearings, more than a dozen governments are presenting statements against the barrier. While the court's non-binding conclusions will not change the course of the wall, the structure is indeed in violation of international law, and it should be removed.

Read More: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinio...lippman25.html
 


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