Unwittingly, is the West enabling its future Executioners?
That is correct but the recipients of the "gift"; owned the gift anyway and should have recieved more - what we now call Jordan and Syria. A few neutron bombs can rectify that mistake however.
Interestingly, a number of territorial problems are British made - in fact - was it Britain that taped a few sworn-enemies together after WWI and called it "Iraq?"
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senojekips
Active member
Padre, for the life of me, I can't see how the Jews of Europe "owned" Palestine, I'm not saying that they didn't, but it seems highly unlikely to me. As I said in an earlier post, "These people had been living in Europe for centuries". They had far more claim on their adoptive countries than Palestine. To my way of thinking Palestine should have been returned to those who ruled it prior to the arrival of the Brits.
As for Iraq, I totally agree. Very similar to Yugoslavia. A time bomb waiting to happen.
I dunno, but to me, much of the problem seems to come down to the mentality of the persons living in the affected areas. What is now Germany, was only a collection of Duchys and Principalities in the 1800s, they seemed to unite without too much trouble.
All of the above not withstanding, I see this as a moral issue. Given that this all occurred after the war, I would have hoped that humanity would have learned something from our errors of the past. No group should have been allowed to just march into a country and displace the inhabitants without any form of compensation. If they do they should expect some form of violent backlash.
As for Iraq, I totally agree. Very similar to Yugoslavia. A time bomb waiting to happen.
I dunno, but to me, much of the problem seems to come down to the mentality of the persons living in the affected areas. What is now Germany, was only a collection of Duchys and Principalities in the 1800s, they seemed to unite without too much trouble.
All of the above not withstanding, I see this as a moral issue. Given that this all occurred after the war, I would have hoped that humanity would have learned something from our errors of the past. No group should have been allowed to just march into a country and displace the inhabitants without any form of compensation. If they do they should expect some form of violent backlash.
When I lived in Israel I was spat at by Jews. I'll never forget one Hasidic kid, all dressed in blacks with curls dangling under the boiler hat, came up to me and my guest - a Carmelite priest who I was showing the Western Wall, and he drew back in his throat and let one fly missing us by centimetres. I refrained from kicking the crap out of him and blessed him instead. And I was roughed up at BG airport in and out of Tel Aviv. - all presumably because I was a Catholic Priest.
Anyway, if anyone could hold a grudge against Jews I could but I don't and I defend their right to Israel - and more - because I recognise they were kicked out of their land and sent to Europe. They didn't go on a holiday to Europe for the Spainsh weather, the French food or the German beer - they got booted out though some managed to stay and survive in Judea. I'm all in favour of a displaced people returning to the location from which they were displaced no matter who they are. On the religious aspect of this conflict, Islam is several thousand years junior to Judiasm and so the "dome of the rock" on the site of the "older" Jewish Temple is a provocative trophy that should be blown up.
Back to topic: Beware of Islam's slow but sure ascendency in Western countries to the point where in three to four generations hence, their MP's and Congressmen will want Islamic or Islamic friendly rules legislated upon the people - and fair enough if the majority want it - but if today's Westerners who are the majority in Western countries want a home - their current home - and want Western-Judaic-Christian culture preserved for future generations in UK, USA, Europe, Australia, then they better watch out now and not tomorrow. Does that mean ban muslims from immigrating? I think yes. Does that mean expelling current muslims? Not sure on that one but I'm warm to the idea. Seeing a car sticker on a car in Melbourne a few months ago bearing the photo of Osama bin laden and a knife dripping blood through the sybols of the Star of David and a cross full of middle eastern youth feed my prejudice. I could add to the anecdotes where we're heading for a real clash of civilisations but not some where far away but in our own Aussie backyard.
Anyway, if anyone could hold a grudge against Jews I could but I don't and I defend their right to Israel - and more - because I recognise they were kicked out of their land and sent to Europe. They didn't go on a holiday to Europe for the Spainsh weather, the French food or the German beer - they got booted out though some managed to stay and survive in Judea. I'm all in favour of a displaced people returning to the location from which they were displaced no matter who they are. On the religious aspect of this conflict, Islam is several thousand years junior to Judiasm and so the "dome of the rock" on the site of the "older" Jewish Temple is a provocative trophy that should be blown up.
Back to topic: Beware of Islam's slow but sure ascendency in Western countries to the point where in three to four generations hence, their MP's and Congressmen will want Islamic or Islamic friendly rules legislated upon the people - and fair enough if the majority want it - but if today's Westerners who are the majority in Western countries want a home - their current home - and want Western-Judaic-Christian culture preserved for future generations in UK, USA, Europe, Australia, then they better watch out now and not tomorrow. Does that mean ban muslims from immigrating? I think yes. Does that mean expelling current muslims? Not sure on that one but I'm warm to the idea. Seeing a car sticker on a car in Melbourne a few months ago bearing the photo of Osama bin laden and a knife dripping blood through the sybols of the Star of David and a cross full of middle eastern youth feed my prejudice. I could add to the anecdotes where we're heading for a real clash of civilisations but not some where far away but in our own Aussie backyard.
senojekips
Active member
Forgiveness is a wonderful thing and admire your humility in granting it to those who have so sorely tried your goodwill.
I am a lesser man in that respect in that I may be prepared to let past wrongs be overlooked at times, but I have a long memory for such things.
About the time of the Six Day War, I was very much in favour of the Jews and felt very sorry for the way that the remainder of the world had stood by and allowed the Holocaust to occur. I must admit that I had not looked at the history of the new Jewish state in any depth, only being aware of the fact that the local Arabs were giving them a bit of stick at every opportunity, so when the Jews hit back I was all in favour, and i guess that is where it would have ended for me.
Then slowly I became aware of a second side to all of this, with the Jews treating the Israeli Arabs as second class citizens with plenty of occurrences such as you suffered, with those who seemingly professed to be the most religious being the worst whilst Israeli Police and Military stood by and did nothing to protect those being assaulted, abused and stoned.
It was at this time I first made the connection to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis. Old men being bullied and pushed to the ground, women and children being taunted and abused at check points by the military, the similarities were just too strong to ignore.
Since that time, with the proliferation of phone cameras and the events in the Gaza Strip etc., it has become impossible to ignore.
I do not disagree with your thoughts on displaced persons having a right to return to their homeland, however they cannot just move in with bulldozers and displace others who have lived in towns and villages for many hundreds of years, this is the 21st century and I would have hoped that humanity had advanced from the attitudes of medieval times that the Jews are displaying in and around Israel.
Many of my ancestors left the miserable coal pit villages of Northumberland and Durham to escape the grinding poverty and death bought about by the laws and employers of that time, but if all of the descendants of those who migrated at that time arrived in Durham now and started just pushing people out of their homes and villages, I doubt that we would last very long.
I feel that there is no moral or legal precedent for the way in which the Jews are treating the Arabs of Israel and adjoining nations, other than that of the Nazi era.
It does nothing to make me proud of my Jewish heritage.
My thoughts on Muslims in Australia who wish to change our lifestyle is another subject that is perhaps better left untouched.
I am a lesser man in that respect in that I may be prepared to let past wrongs be overlooked at times, but I have a long memory for such things.
About the time of the Six Day War, I was very much in favour of the Jews and felt very sorry for the way that the remainder of the world had stood by and allowed the Holocaust to occur. I must admit that I had not looked at the history of the new Jewish state in any depth, only being aware of the fact that the local Arabs were giving them a bit of stick at every opportunity, so when the Jews hit back I was all in favour, and i guess that is where it would have ended for me.
Then slowly I became aware of a second side to all of this, with the Jews treating the Israeli Arabs as second class citizens with plenty of occurrences such as you suffered, with those who seemingly professed to be the most religious being the worst whilst Israeli Police and Military stood by and did nothing to protect those being assaulted, abused and stoned.
It was at this time I first made the connection to the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis. Old men being bullied and pushed to the ground, women and children being taunted and abused at check points by the military, the similarities were just too strong to ignore.
Since that time, with the proliferation of phone cameras and the events in the Gaza Strip etc., it has become impossible to ignore.
I do not disagree with your thoughts on displaced persons having a right to return to their homeland, however they cannot just move in with bulldozers and displace others who have lived in towns and villages for many hundreds of years, this is the 21st century and I would have hoped that humanity had advanced from the attitudes of medieval times that the Jews are displaying in and around Israel.
Many of my ancestors left the miserable coal pit villages of Northumberland and Durham to escape the grinding poverty and death bought about by the laws and employers of that time, but if all of the descendants of those who migrated at that time arrived in Durham now and started just pushing people out of their homes and villages, I doubt that we would last very long.
I feel that there is no moral or legal precedent for the way in which the Jews are treating the Arabs of Israel and adjoining nations, other than that of the Nazi era.
It does nothing to make me proud of my Jewish heritage.
My thoughts on Muslims in Australia who wish to change our lifestyle is another subject that is perhaps better left untouched.
Senojekips.
I am not banging heads with you any further on the subject of your proud heritage, in which you appear to have little other than personal interest.
It is only because of the needs of the present that it is important not brush history under the carpet, convenient as it may be. But history cannot be denied try as hard as you may.
As i said last post, I am finished on this one, i have said my piece.
you have had no whinging from me, but an explanation of the power and determination of Israelis to defend themselves as well as they can.
I detect that it is this strength which gets up your nose.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, well founded or not, and I understand that often, in such circumstances, facts are inconvenient.
Why you say I wish to cling to the past I cannot understand, wasn't it your investigation of your heritage that was put up as argument?
My debate interest is in bare truth, but if all hards facts are whinging what the hell. Why should I waste my time ?
FIN
I am not banging heads with you any further on the subject of your proud heritage, in which you appear to have little other than personal interest.
It is only because of the needs of the present that it is important not brush history under the carpet, convenient as it may be. But history cannot be denied try as hard as you may.
As i said last post, I am finished on this one, i have said my piece.
you have had no whinging from me, but an explanation of the power and determination of Israelis to defend themselves as well as they can.
I detect that it is this strength which gets up your nose.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, well founded or not, and I understand that often, in such circumstances, facts are inconvenient.
Why you say I wish to cling to the past I cannot understand, wasn't it your investigation of your heritage that was put up as argument?
My debate interest is in bare truth, but if all hards facts are whinging what the hell. Why should I waste my time ?
FIN
senojekips
Active member
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senojekips
Active member
Even moderate Israeli MPs are aware of the way in which the world views their immoral actions.
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?...Dodge+weapon+carrier&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&sa=G
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?...Dodge+weapon+carrier&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&sa=G
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Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
I believe the United Nations does want to talk to Israel though, because the Nation-State of Israel is currently in violation of a laundry list of United Nations Resolutions (more than the number Saddam found himself in violation of) and Israel has illegal WMD...... but, as the Government of Israel has refused to withdraw from Jerusalem, expulsion from the United Nations may in the end be the action taken, as Israel's acceptance into the United Nations hinged in part on Jerusalem remaining under United Nations control, as per United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194.
As for a Trial.... I'm still waiting for the day when all those responsibile for the attack on the USS Liberty are brought to Justice, so I won't be holding my breath in regards to any International Court for new crimes.
senojekips
Active member
Gator, I hope that it never comes to dragging persons before the courts. I would much rather see the Israelis become responsible members of the human race.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barrier violates international law
By PETER LIPPMAN
GUEST COLUMNIST
This week the International Court of Justice is meeting at The Hague to consider the legality of the "separation wall" that Israel is building in the West Bank. During the hearings, more than a dozen governments are presenting statements against the barrier. While the court's non-binding conclusions will not change the course of the wall, the structure is indeed in violation of international law, and it should be removed.
Read More: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/161878_lippman25.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barrier violates international law
By PETER LIPPMAN
GUEST COLUMNIST
This week the International Court of Justice is meeting at The Hague to consider the legality of the "separation wall" that Israel is building in the West Bank. During the hearings, more than a dozen governments are presenting statements against the barrier. While the court's non-binding conclusions will not change the course of the wall, the structure is indeed in violation of international law, and it should be removed.
Read More: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/161878_lippman25.html
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
No offense Spike but with all of the crap the Palestinians pull and the myriad of terrorist forces arrayed against Israel I cannot believe I just read that.
Gator
U of B and B Alumnus
Elections in the United States of America are not really that far off, better leadership in the United States of America can go a long way towards peace in the Middle East.
Israel has to feel they have something to lose before they will make major concessions towards a lasting peace.
The Palestinians have already lost much, as they have no homeland at the present, and are in my opinion treated as second class citizens with few rights.
Israel right now in my own opinion merely wants the Palestinians to just go away, and I do not see that as the road towards any lasting peace in the Middle East.
senojekips
Active member
Bulldogg, Firstly I ask you to please read all of the posts since I was dragged into this "argy bargy" and you will see why it is so.
Then type the words "Israel and mistreatment" into your search bar.
As I posted earlier even moderate Israeli politicians are aware that they are liable for crimes against humanity.
Yes, I am aware that Israel is an ally of the USA,.... so why are US citzens being jailed and tortured in Israeli jails for protesting against Israeli war crimes? This is no ratbag Jane Fonda "one off" thing. Most are guilty of no more than visiting relatives. Read:http://www.ameu.org/summary1.asp?iid=56
Don't allow the fact, that Israel is presently an ally of convenience, fool you that they like the US.
They have WMD, why hasn't anyone done anything about them?
Never lose sight of the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Having said all of that, don't go getting the idea that I condone terrorism, nothing is further from the truth. But if we want to have any credibility in the world, and we are going to fight terrorism, we must be seen to fight it no matter who is employing it. That means our allies too.
World opinion is slowly favouring the Palestinians, and it is only as a result of the way in which the Israelis are treating them. All ready the International court has ruled that the Israeli wall is both immoral and illegal.
Lastly, Remember what happened in South Africa.
The Palestinians will never defeat the Israelis, but eventually, World opinion will.
Then type the words "Israel and mistreatment" into your search bar.
As I posted earlier even moderate Israeli politicians are aware that they are liable for crimes against humanity.
Yes, I am aware that Israel is an ally of the USA,.... so why are US citzens being jailed and tortured in Israeli jails for protesting against Israeli war crimes? This is no ratbag Jane Fonda "one off" thing. Most are guilty of no more than visiting relatives. Read:http://www.ameu.org/summary1.asp?iid=56
Don't allow the fact, that Israel is presently an ally of convenience, fool you that they like the US.
They have WMD, why hasn't anyone done anything about them?
Never lose sight of the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Having said all of that, don't go getting the idea that I condone terrorism, nothing is further from the truth. But if we want to have any credibility in the world, and we are going to fight terrorism, we must be seen to fight it no matter who is employing it. That means our allies too.
World opinion is slowly favouring the Palestinians, and it is only as a result of the way in which the Israelis are treating them. All ready the International court has ruled that the Israeli wall is both immoral and illegal.
Lastly, Remember what happened in South Africa.
The Palestinians will never defeat the Israelis, but eventually, World opinion will.
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senojekips
Active member
Padre, today I had the chance to ask about the Jews alleged "ownership" of Israel.
My informant, (a retired lecturer in theology and also my cousin) ventured the opinion. The "Promised Land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, this is not exclusive to the Jews, as the Arabs are also descendants of Abraham ??
This then led me to Google for some material and I found this:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b7b_1180614298
which is very sobering and well worth watching, when viewed in the context of our present debate.
My informant, (a retired lecturer in theology and also my cousin) ventured the opinion. The "Promised Land was promised to the descendants of Abraham, this is not exclusive to the Jews, as the Arabs are also descendants of Abraham ??
This then led me to Google for some material and I found this:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b7b_1180614298
which is very sobering and well worth watching, when viewed in the context of our present debate.
OK, class is now in session:
1. Abram (before getting the name Abraham) had a wife named Sarah who was barren and her barreness was a source of pain and embarrassment. Abram had sex with one of his slaves named Hagar and she gave birth to a son Ishmael who Arabs/Arab Muslims claim a blood-line link to Abraham - and by extension a link to God's promise to the descendents of Abraham ie. the land of Israel/Palestine.
2. Several years after the birth of Ishmael, Sarah became pregnant by Abram and gave birth to Isaac to who the Jewish people claim a blood-link to Abraham.
3. When Ishmael was 13 and Isaac not yet born GOD said:
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac" (Gen. 17:20-21).
4. The "promise" of the land which accompanied or caused the name change from 'Abram' to 'Abraham' was TO ISAAC and Abraham's descendents through Isaac NOT ISHMAEL who was banished by Abraham with his mother into the desert.
5. Homework for the class is to digest these:
http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/arab.htm
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/HolyLandI/holylandi.html
http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/Jerusalem_Jewish_and_Moslem_Claims_to_the_Holy_City.asp
6. Class dismissed.
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
When that freedom fighter employs children as suicide-murder bombers and when that freedom fighter targets civilians he is no longer a freedom fighter, it is when they employ these tactics they cross the line into scumbag ******* terrorist.
As for the rest I have found when discussing religion and/or politics you will never change anyone's mind so I won't attempt it with you or anyone else for that matter. My post was simply lodging a formal complaint as I see Israel in a different light given their history, nothing to do with being an ally or not.
The Palestinians deserved to have their land taken away from them and given to the Jews as a homeland when they and their leaders colluded with Hitler during WWII... IMHO. Certain groups of people have had their land taken away from them in the course of history by many different players and it all happens for a reason. Indians both North and South America, Aborigines, Maori, Palestinians, Africans sold into slavery, the Confederate States... I look at it as Darwin's law of survival of the fittest in a very human context. Political correctness be damned, the most advanced and hence fittest members of the species supplanted those weaker and thus less fit to carry on. End of story. Those members of the species displaced still in existence are better for it. The increased life spans and the fact none of them as a whole want to return to living in huts and dying of diseases prevented and/or cured by their "oppressor's" medicine and technology.
In various wars since its inception Israel has proven itself the fittest of the tribes residing in the Middle East. Against overwhelming odds and against determined enemies they have secured breeding rights no different than a bull elephant seal who runs off pretenders to his harem and slice of beachfront property. Our intellect does not preclude our animal drives and the drive to secure land for us and ours is primal and not to be denied. In fact rather than rise above it, our intellect serves as a tool in our fulfillment of that drive.
Just musing outloud.
senojekips
Active member
Bulldogg, So, you think that "Might makes right"?
Nah,.... I'm afraid I don't necessarily agree. Yes there have been cases where it has worked to the advantage of the oppressed but it's not the way I'd want to live, or you, I'll bet. It's all too easy to take that approach when you think that you are in no danger of it happening to you.
On this Forum is a thread pertaining to the American Militia (A rifleman behind every blade of grass etc) What we are seeing in Israel is the Palestinian militia in action.
I don't agree with using unwitting children to kill others, but what you must realise is that it is attitudes such as expressed here, that drive other people to such extreme measures*. When a person has no reasonable hope of removing their oppressor it can drive them to extraordinary measures. I'll guarantee that they took no pleasure in doing what they did. And here's us sitting well fed, fat and happy in our living rooms condemning them.
*Worse things happen in the USA on a regular basis, and often for no more reason than the perpetrator wants to become infamous.
You say that no one can change a person's mind, not true at all, as I have been reading up on Padre's lessons and found that it appears the Jews were promised the Holy land. This has not completely changed my mind on the whole subject but I am willing to concede the point.
Also it appears that I have been using poor terminology which hasn't helped. Where I have been pointing the finger at "Jews" per se, it appears that the people I should have been talking about are what are termed as "Zionists".
None of the above has altered my view on the morality of the Palestinian question in the least degree.
Nah,.... I'm afraid I don't necessarily agree. Yes there have been cases where it has worked to the advantage of the oppressed but it's not the way I'd want to live, or you, I'll bet. It's all too easy to take that approach when you think that you are in no danger of it happening to you.
On this Forum is a thread pertaining to the American Militia (A rifleman behind every blade of grass etc) What we are seeing in Israel is the Palestinian militia in action.
I don't agree with using unwitting children to kill others, but what you must realise is that it is attitudes such as expressed here, that drive other people to such extreme measures*. When a person has no reasonable hope of removing their oppressor it can drive them to extraordinary measures. I'll guarantee that they took no pleasure in doing what they did. And here's us sitting well fed, fat and happy in our living rooms condemning them.
*Worse things happen in the USA on a regular basis, and often for no more reason than the perpetrator wants to become infamous.
You say that no one can change a person's mind, not true at all, as I have been reading up on Padre's lessons and found that it appears the Jews were promised the Holy land. This has not completely changed my mind on the whole subject but I am willing to concede the point.
Also it appears that I have been using poor terminology which hasn't helped. Where I have been pointing the finger at "Jews" per se, it appears that the people I should have been talking about are what are termed as "Zionists".
None of the above has altered my view on the morality of the Palestinian question in the least degree.
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Nowhere else in the world do parents do this crap.
I see nothing but terrorists begetting terrorists.
And for everyone's reading pleasure...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/02/isrlpa9591.htm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17707
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp441.htm
senojekips
Active member
Yep, they love to boast about it. How much of it actually happens is anybodies guess, but most of these photos are propaganda, done to instil hatred into the kids, and while I don't condone it, I can understand why they do it.http://atheism.about.com/b/a/130187.htm
I'm not even going to bother starting a collection of sites that back what I'm saying as the 'net is absolutely flooded with images from both sides and all we will do, is bore the tits off one another.
Forget the propaganda, and the endless images of people killing others. Just look at it from a moral point of view. Put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians for a minute, suddenly there's no contest.
It's just morally wrong, and if you can't see that, there's no use pursuing the issue. The similarities with the Nazi experience alone should start ringing some alarm bells somewhere.
People don't just go blowing themselves to pieces for the entertainment value, they must be driven to it. These people are at the end of their tether.
I'm not even going to bother starting a collection of sites that back what I'm saying as the 'net is absolutely flooded with images from both sides and all we will do, is bore the tits off one another.
Forget the propaganda, and the endless images of people killing others. Just look at it from a moral point of view. Put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians for a minute, suddenly there's no contest.
It's just morally wrong, and if you can't see that, there's no use pursuing the issue. The similarities with the Nazi experience alone should start ringing some alarm bells somewhere.
People don't just go blowing themselves to pieces for the entertainment value, they must be driven to it. These people are at the end of their tether.
major liability
Active member
Ever heard the expression "Move your feet, lose your seat"?
That's what should've happened with the Jews, but since Europe was feeling sad for them because of the holocaust, they got a free slice of land in the middle of a bunch of countries that hate their guts. All because of what an ancient religious text says. Religion shouldn't even factor into this. I don't care if your ancient book says you're the best thing ever and God loves you the most. It means nothing.
When I think about what it would be like if I was Palestinian, completely out of hope and treated like **** by the Israelis, suddenly blowing myself up for Allah seems a lot easier... and more gratifying.
That's what should've happened with the Jews, but since Europe was feeling sad for them because of the holocaust, they got a free slice of land in the middle of a bunch of countries that hate their guts. All because of what an ancient religious text says. Religion shouldn't even factor into this. I don't care if your ancient book says you're the best thing ever and God loves you the most. It means nothing.
When I think about what it would be like if I was Palestinian, completely out of hope and treated like **** by the Israelis, suddenly blowing myself up for Allah seems a lot easier... and more gratifying.