torture ban

Should the US Ban Torture?


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Whispering Death said:
You would deny them milk and cookies 03USMC? How dare you sir! I will see you in the international criminal court in the Hague!!!

Geez when did join Amnesty? :lol:

But there have been drawn out arguments here on what torture is and AI is often brought up.

I have a hard time buying that. Things like the prolonged playing of Heavy Metal, Rap or Rock music is torture. Then again I live with a teenager. That some interrogator telling a suspected terrorist. "If you don't tell us then bad things are going to happen to you and your family"
Is torture. But their are some that would have believe it is.

Define it strictly is all I want.
 
I found this, might be a start:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984

Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

From http://www.apt.ch/un/definition.shtml
 
Whispering Death said:
You would deny them milk and cookies 03USMC? How dare you sir! I will see you in the international criminal court in the Hague!!!


The way that court's been working...isnt that tatamount to life inprisonment, while on trial?
 
Italian Guy said:
I found this, might be a start:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984

Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

From http://www.apt.ch/un/definition.shtml

And that is what they cry about when you give them the apprehension of Torture.
 
The SS and KGB had such horrendous methods which were well known that a suspect would be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth when they were apprehended.
 
The problem here is that torture will NOT work on a person who is a fanatic. They are involved in something because of a deep rooted religious belief, not for money or family or nationalism. This is about going to heaven. They are willing to kill themselves in order to go to heaven and you somehow think you can torture them into selling out? To do so for them would be to go to hell.

Study the Inquisition and you will see that regardless of which faith, people do NOT turn no matter how much pain you inflict. They see it and accept it as cleansing their souls preparing them more fully to be accepted into heaven. This has been true for centuries with christians and muslims. Only if the person is not truly committed will this work, otherwise they will take it until you kill them. Committment to a secular cause is nowhere near the commitment to a religious one.
 
I agree that torture will not bring in good info. I was taught that by interogators and I believe it to this day.

BUT. I KNOW that if an enemy KNOWS for CERTAIN that there is NO WAY he can be even made uncomfortable then what the heck chance do you think anyone ever has of ever getting anything useful at all in any situation Period?

I also KNOW for CERTAIN that if all a detainee has to do is issue a complaint about torture, and politicos and the MSM will pick that up and spread it as if GOD himself pissed it into their ears..then there's no way in heck you'll ever get anyone with any sense or ability to ever step up to do the interrogating.

Sometimes folks need to keep their sucks shut and let men work.

(words in caps are for emphasis not shout)

PS. Read those articles from the GC a few times and then post how many holes you can poke in it as far as defining torture goes. Pretend you're a lawyer prosectuing someone..or defending someone. It's so vague that it is meaningless.

Edited by me to remove some iffy type lingo
 
Uncomfortable is not torture. I think our problem at present is that there seems to be or is being presented by the media that there are no clear guidelines or limits as to what is and is not acceptable treatment. Grimmy, you've got firsthand experience, is there any light you can shed without "aiding and abedding the enemy"?

ASIDE: Does "abedding" mean sleep with the enemy as in "bedding" someone? :lol:
 
it's actually abetting i think. Im kalifornia edumakated so I tend to get that spellerizing and grammaring wrong alot.

As far as my yammering on "aiding and abetting" that's pretty much from my own definiton of treason. That's anything that makes life easier for the bad guys.

The basic definition of torture that I was taught was
anything that would cause permenant damage, disabilty or disfigurment.
anything that would risk loss of life or limb.

Things that were not torture.

drug induced confuzion or disorientation
white sound
physical positioning that causes muscle stress
infliction of pain that does not cause permenant dmg or disfigurment
sleep deprivation
exposure to cold or heat (with qualified medical obervation)
isolation
food deprivation (again, with med overwatch)


that sort of thing.
 
I was in a medical command and we had been briefed on more than one occasion to be "on the lookout" for signs of torture and the definition they gave us was "anything that leaves a scar". Sounds pretty similar to your more accurate definition.
 
Sometimes psychological torture can be lots more effective and devastating than physical torture, above all for terrorist . Ex.: may be you can hit a terrorist for all the day but will not say a word, but if you make him eat raw pork will start singing " La dona e mobile" :lol:
 
Actually, some techniques used by Police departments all aver the US would be considered torture to some more susceptible people. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't but these practices are within the law. We're not talking rubber hoses to the kidneys but exhaustive repetition of the charges, 10x12 glossies of the crime scene, instilling a feeling of isolation in a small room, and rewards for telling anything the police can use in a trial.
 
I agree. ^^ We should torture some Bin Laden's soldiers. So, they might tell us where Bin Laden is?
 
Please keep in mind that any info I have is at least 20 years out of date and was acquired in just a short OJT period.
 
Fox, your comment shows a complete lack of understanding as to the level of the commitment these people have to their cause. The father of the fundamentalist islamic movement, Qutb, was tortured severely by the Egyptian secret police but it only served to harden his and his followers resolve.
 
a shot of sodium pentathol (or its modern upgrade) and a good questioner and you'll get all the info you need, assuming that detainee has the info to begin with.

No muss, no fuss, no damage done.

Now here's part of the problem. Using drugs to reduce or diminish a persons capacity to withhold information when questioned is considered torture by the very same forces that are pushing this issue into the political arena.

The truth of their possition is, US forces should not be allowed in any way to illicit any information from anyone, ever.

The USA is the great evil and it must be destroyed. These are not arabs, nor are they muslim. These tend to be US citizens of european decent.
 
Whether torture is physical or mental the trauma is the same
Medical Studies/Trials
Published: Tuesday, 6-Mar-2007

In a study which has examined forms of ill treatment during captivity, researchers have found that psychological torment and humiliation can inflict as much terror and trauma as physical torture.

The study was carried out by psychologists at King's College, University of London, and the Clinical Hospital Zvezdara in Belgrade, on 279 former prisoners from the former Yugoslavia including Bosnians, Croatians and Serbians.

All had experienced at least one form of physical torture such as beatings as well as mental torture, and of the 241 men, 192 had been in detention camps, with the torture experiences occurring roughly eight years earlier.

The men were asked which of 54 war-related stressors and 46 different forms of torture they had experienced and how distressed or out of control they felt overall during the torture.

The researchers say it was hard to distinguish between the psychological damage exerted by mental versus physical forms of torture.

The study authors say the findings indicate a need for a broad definition of torture, because techniques such as sham executions, threats of rape, sexual advances, humiliating treatment, sleep deprivation and witnessing the torture of others, were as distressing as physical torture.

The authors say the unpredictability and loss of control created by mental torture can produce similar levels of anxiety, fear and helplessness as physical torture and leave comparable long-term psychological scars.

The findings come at a time when interrogation techniques have stirred controversy in the United States after evidence has emerged of detainee abuse in Guantanamo Bay, Iraq and Afghanistan, and revelations that the CIA ran secret prisons outside the the United States for terrorism suspects.

Study author Metin Basoglu of King's College says the United Nations define torture as severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental.

However the U.S. torture policy appears to advocate a narrower definition of torture that excludes mental pain and suffering caused by various acts that do not cause severe physical pain.

It excludes detention and interrogation procedures which include blindfolding and hooding, forced nudity, isolation and psychological manipulations.

Based on the detainees' scoring of how stressful each method of torture was, and the incidence of mental illness and post-traumatic stress disorder resulting from the experience, the authors say there was no substantial difference between mental and physical torture.

In an accompanying editorial Dr. Steven H. Miles, of the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis says the distinction between torture and degrading treatment is not only useless, but also dangerous.

Dr. Miles says the study demonstrates that the severity of long-lasting adverse mental effects is unrelated to whether the torture or degrading treatment is physical or psychological.

According to Dr. Miles the wrongness of the inflicted harms is compounded by the fact that most abused prisoners, including those in the present war on terror, are innocent or ignorant of terrorist activities, but guilty or innocent, torture survivors rarely get the mental health treatment they need.

Dr. Miles urges human rights-respecting nations and medical societies to unite to reinforce international authority against torture.
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=22424

Interesting study, I think we should torture some more people to see if we get the same results... in the interests of science of course.
:)
 
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