Tea Party

[redwood]

All 03 and I are having is a heated but polite disagreement. He's stated his opinion, I've stated mine. Thats it. Nobody is forcing him to agree with me, or visa versa, and neither him nor I said anything that should have insulted the other...or you for that matter. In fact, this is one of the rare occasions of how these political forums should actually work. Two sides express their opposite views which they are passionate about, but yet remain polite and respectful to the other. Frankly I would much rather have discussions with USMC03 along these lines than have it decend into the regular screamfests which many of these threads here dissolve into. Or worse, have this site turn into DU or Freerepublic where only the ideological sheep are allowed do anything else but bleat their agreement together in unison. Any opinion is worthless unless you are willing to put it to the test.

Furthermore what does the discussion of our soldiers fighting overseas have anything at all to do with the topic of this thread??? It sounds more like your're annoyed because I said something you disagree with or that I disagreed with 03 in general. America isnt North Korea, we are a country that has a military, not a militarized country. We can disagree with anyone here, even with those in uniform. My father and Grandfather both wore the same uniform you do.

Secondly you mentioned that tired old rightwing line about "freedoms" being taken away from you? Which Freedoms specifically are you referring to? What are these freedoms? I'd like some concrete proof about your rights being suspended by this phantom menace you are talking about. If things were really as oppressive as FOX NEWS is telling you, do you really think you'd be allowed by the government to spout off like you are doing now? Do you think FOX and Rush would be allowed to broadcast? Its really pathetic when Americans today rant on about loss of "supposed" rights. They should have a discussion with someone from Myanmar, North Korea or someone like my Grandmother who lived under Nazi occupation or spent some time in one of Stalin's Gulag.

I haven't noticed any fewer freedoms than I had a year ago. I suppose if I was a crooked Wall St hustler or fit the profile of an Al Qaeda,i might feel inhibited. I seem to be online at the moment speaking my mind. I've had to stop for red lights as long as I can recall and insurance,and seatbelts became required quite a while back.....so I guess I lost a bit of freedom then. I don't do gang warfare so not having an M60 in the back seat...I can live without. I kind of LIKE that most folks also don't have an M 60 in the back seat and most also stop at red lights. Having a SOCIETY does mean you don't indulge every whim.

I don't want to run about naked or start a cult. I feel patriotic when I pay my taxes and grateful when the road is maintained and forest fires get put out.

Is this about me being free from having any medical coverage,free to do my own dentistry with a pair of pliers? I can give up those "freedoms".

 

[-- Dusty]

All 03 and I are having is a heated but polite disagreement. He's stated his opinion, I've stated mine. Thats it. Nobody is forcing him to agree with me, or visa versa, and neither him nor I said anything that should have insulted the other...or you for that matter. In fact, this is one of the rare occasions of how these political forums should actually work. Two sides express their opposite views which they are passionate about, but yet remain polite and respectful to the other. Frankly I would much rather have discussions with USMC03 along these lines than have it decend into the regular screamfests which many of these threads here dissolve into. Or worse, have this site turn into DU or Freerepublic where only the ideological sheep are allowed do anything else but bleat their agreement together in unison. Any opinion is worthless unless you are willing to put it to the test.

And I stated mine. And to me every bit of it IS relevant.

Furthermore what does the discussion of our soldiers fighting overseas have anything at all to do with the topic of this thread??? It sounds more like your're annoyed because I said something you disagree with or that I disagreed with 03 in general. America isnt North Korea, we are a country that has a military, not a militarized country. We can disagree with anyone here, even with those in uniform. My father and Grandfather both wore the same uniform you do.

I stated my opinion. And I still respect you and 03.

Secondly you mentioned that tired old rightwing line about "freedoms" being taken away from you? Which Freedoms specifically are you referring to? What are these freedoms? I'd like some concrete proof about your rights being suspended by this phantom menace you are talking about. If things were really as oppressive as FOX NEWS is telling you, do you really think you'd be allowed by the government to spout off like you are doing now? Do you think FOX and Rush would be allowed to broadcast? Its really pathetic when Americans today rant on about loss of "supposed" rights. They should have a discussion with someone from Myanmar, North Korea or someone like my Grandmother who lived under Nazi occupation or spent some time in one of Stalin's Gulag.

You may have BTDT in those other countries, but you ain't BTDT here in the states. Your grandmother lived under nazi oppression? That's good. My grandfather got his purple hearts fighting Hitler's guys.

 

[mmarsh]

And I stated mine. And to me every bit of it IS relevant.


I stated my opinion. And I still respect you and 03.


You may have BTDT in those other countries, but you ain't BTDT here in the states. Your grandmother lived under nazi oppression? That's good. My grandfather got his purple hearts fighting Hitler's guys.

Oh I "Aint???" Thank you for clarifying this because until now I could have sworn I was in born and raised in NYC (that's in the state of New York), that I went to college in Indiana (also part of the USA) or that I both vote via absentee ballot and I file a US tax return every year. I went to Europe is because my job sent me overseas. But obviously you know more about where I am from and what I've done than I do so thanks for clarifying this.

And even if I wasn't an American citizen, your wrong anyway because I can tell you for a fact that I know foreigners, even people here at Milforum that know about our country than most Americans do. Which is a very sad commentary of our time. So you were wrong both on who I was, AND on the fact that someone who is not American doesn't know he is talking about.

So next time, do NOT be making assuming statements about people you don't actually know. Clear? BTW. All of this was in my Sig (the last line)...had you actually been bothered to read it.

Both of my grandfathers and a great uncle fought in WWII. But my point wasn't to compare war records. My point was people who obviously have never lived under a true dictatorship shouldn't pretend that they have simply because they don't like the current president, which is really what this is all about. That fact that you couldnt name a single "right" like I asked, (and BTW, nobody has been able to answer that very simple question correctly yet) highlights the difference between someone who actually knows what he is talking about and someone who is just using political slogans without understanding their real significance. You don't actually know what Government oppression is unless you have actually experienced it.

 

[03USMC]

I'll tell you how he can do it Hmmm. It's because he's allowed his opinion whether I agree with it or not.

Do I agree with the Current Administrations policies? Domestic they have some good goals such as health care......it will depend on the plan and how it's implemented as to how good it actually is for the Country. I do disagree with alot of other things in the administration.Holders failing to prosecute the New Black Panthers, for one.

I don't have much faith in their forgien policy at all and whole heartedly believe it will bite us in the ass if we keep appeasing nations who don't like us because we are apparently attoning for something.

What I really hate more than anything is the cult of personality thats grown up around the Current POTUS. The members of this cult believe that anything that falls out of Obamas mouth has come from the lips of God, and if you disagree with a policy or part of a policy then you become a: right wing terrorist,facist, racist pick a liberal slam. Regardless of why you disagree. To these people (and I'm not saying its all on the left) this guy is their Messiah and thou shall not question his wisdom or that of MSNBC.

As far as Socialist Presidents we've had one.....FDR had a seriuos socialist bent to the point that his VP Henry Wallace was an open and vocal admirer of the USSR and Stalin.....which is why he was dropped in favor of Truman. Check out the New Deal and tell me it dosen't have a Socialist Slant.

Now do I think that Obama displays a list to the left. Of course I do and I think its farther left than we've been in a while. But I don't want him to completely fail because we all fail if that happens. But I don't want this administration given carte blanche to change anything they want by powering it thru.

 

[-- Dusty]

Oh I "Aint???" Thank you for clarifying this because until now I could have sworn I was in born and raised in NYC (that's in the state of New York), that I went to college in Indiana (also part of the USA) or that I both vote via absentee ballot and I file a US tax return every year. I went to Europe is because my job sent me overseas. But obviously you know more about where I am from and what I've done than I do so thanks for clarifying this.

Then I was clearly wrong and I apologize for that.

And even if I wasn't an American citizen, your wrong anyway because I can tell you for a fact that I know foreigners, even people here at Milforum that know about our country than most Americans do. Which is a very sad commentary of our time. So you were wrong both on who I was, AND on the fact that someone who is not American doesn't know he is talking about.

Many Americans simply don't care about America. Gimme gimme gimme is all they can think about.

Both of my grandfathers and a great uncle fought in WWII. But my point wasn't to compare war records. My point was people who obviously have never lived under a true dictatorship shouldn't pretend that they have simply because they don't like the current president, which is really what this is all about. That fact that you couldnt name a single "right" like I asked, (and BTW, nobody has been able to answer that very simple question correctly yet) highlights the difference between someone who actually knows what he is talking about and someone who is just using political slogans without understanding their real significance. You don't actually know what Government oppression is unless you have actually experienced it.

I know government oppression from my end, which is nothing compared to what people experience in Chechnia, Bosnia, Iran, Russia, you name it. That I know well.

Personally, I think that America needs to live under that kind of dictatorship. Maybe when they live through hell they'll realize the heaven they have now.

 

[mmarsh]

Hmmmm (Responses in RED)

Then I was clearly wrong and I apologize for that.

Apology accepted. Lets speak no more of this.

Many Americans simply don't care about America. Gimme gimme gimme is all they can think about.

I think it depends of which Americans we are talking about specifically.

When it comes to Wall Street Brokers and Bankers that lined up in front of Congress to fix their bankrupt companies that was caused by their own Stupidity and Greed and then use this bailout money to give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses as a reward for tanking the company. Then I agree with you.

If its about providing affordable health-care to all Americans , but especially the 49 Million Americans that have no Health-care at all because they simply cannot afford the exorbitant premiums or to regulate an industry whose business practices set new standards for immorality in Corporate Business, then I don't agree. A governments job is to protect its people, that includes from domestic problems and threats as well.

But which are people on the right most upset with? The bankers that got one of the biggest public payday in our nations history due thanks to the previous president. Or a genuine desire to use public funds to help those citizens that really need it.

For the record, I don't like Obama's plan either, I think its not ambitious enough. I hate HMOs and if we went to a single payer system like most countries have and every single HMO went bankrupt because of it I would sleep extremely well. But I applaud Obama for having the guts to take on an issue that nobody had the guts to take on before, either because they were too chickens*** or because they had been simply bought off by Private medical insurence which a a Trillion Dollar business in America.

USMC03

Good post. Though I would say the Obama's cult of personalty is largely over now. Hes still popular, but I can tell you for a fact that Obama has made a lot of people on the left very angry as he has not nearly been as liberal as they hoped he'd be. A few weeks ago MSNBC's Keith Olbermann openly talked about running a primary challenge against him in 2010 if things continued the way they were. I have heard in other circles that may be Russ Feingold who as you stated is much more to the left than Obama is. Now I seriously doubt they would do this, but it does show that the natives are restless.

The New Deal didn't have a socialist slant, it WAS socialism. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the GI Bill, the VA, just about any Federal Program that involves giving Federal money to private citizens (no matter the reason) is a socialist program. That's what Americans don't understand, they get all riled up about Socialism without realizing that Socialism A) Isnt all bad and B) Is hardly anything new in America. America's economic woes were caused by capitalism running-amok which is why socialism is needed in certain sectors (not everywhere) to act as a counter-balance.

What FDR proved is that certain programs if they are well designed, can be extremely successful. Some areas like public Healthcare, Energy, and Public transportation (AMTRACK) do not belong in the private sector.

And that's why the New Deal is credited as being one of the most important bits of domestic legislation of the 20th century.

 

[03USMC]

Agreed the New Deal was socialism but to his credit FDR did a better job packaging it and selling it than the current left does. Yes certain socialist programs are needed as a counter balance no argument there.

The far left maybe disappointed in Obama but IMO they were living in a pollyanna world if they thought that sweeping changes to thier POV would happen over night just because he was elected.

Your 100% correct in that a majority of the american people fail to understand that we've had a socialist president.....as a matter of fact one that was elected 3 times and yet we remained a democratic republic. Right now right and left are throwing BS hot button issues out to stir the pot while not addressing the issues and concerns agenda, agenda ......agenda.

 

[-- Dusty]

Mmarsh, I lost faith in Obama's thinking ability when his Cash 4 Clunkers program went under. I've heard some pretty wild tales about the numbers used in that program, but nothing I can confirm right now, so it's only here say at this time. I will say that Obama's plan sucked. It went under, and already people are questioning if there wasn't some fraud involved.

Then the 3 trillion dollar bailout. Again, no definite numbers, except that an awful lot of money went places it shouldn't have, when half of that could have been spent on both educating people AND helping fund their small business venture. The bailouts didn't help re-hire those paid off. Maybe it paid for someone's Lear Jet to get an oil change. I dunno. Doesn't matter because it was good money after bad.

Those two shot a big hole in the health plan. If he can't manage those two simple plans (when compared to health care), he can't manage the health care plan.

 

[The Other Guy]

Your 100% correct in that a majority of the american people fail to understand that we've had a socialist president.....as a matter of fact one that was elected 3 times and yet we remained a democratic republic. Right now right and left are throwing BS hot button issues out to stir the pot while not addressing the issues and concerns agenda, agenda ......agenda.

Exactly. FDR had a huge number of socialist policies, including a couple that were struck down by the Supreme Court, and Bush nationalized the US banking industry, but it's Obama that everyone is complaining is socialist. They offer no solutions of their own but just strike down the opposing view because it doesn't support their own political agenda.

 

[03USMC]

They are using socialist in the wrong context . We've had socialist policies before.....but. The right uses socialism as a hot button because it equates to communism in the minds of most.

There is nothing wrong with a little properly managed and overseen socialism. But there is such a thing as too much socialism. We need to make sure the far far left understands that.

 

[George]

"49 million uninsured" @ least 25-30 million of those are illegal aliens, they won't be if Obama gets his way. probably another 10 million are invincible youth who don't see a need for it.
"Cash for clunkers" worked as advertised except for the administrative bog downs & "they" want to bring "efficientcy" to health care.
Bush was probably paniced by advisors pushing the absolute worse case senario, but the Democrats ran Congress the last 2 years of his Admin & wrote the Bills giving money to Banks with no oversight.

 

[mmarsh]

"49 million uninsured" @ least 25-30 million of those are illegal aliens, they won't be if Obama gets his way. probably another 10 million are invincible youth who don't see a need for it.
"Cash for clunkers" worked as advertised except for the administrative bog downs & "they" want to bring "efficientcy" to health care.
Bush was probably paniced by advisors pushing the absolute worse case senario, but the Democrats ran Congress the last 2 years of his Admin & wrote the Bills giving money to Banks with no oversight.

George

Please stop pulling fact out of thin air. We can tell you are lying because there is only an estimated 11.6 Million illegals in the country according to the last survey. If you have an opinion you free to state it, but people are pretty saavy here and if you pull facts out of your rear-end we ARE going to know about it. You represent yourself extremely poorly if the only way you can support your opinion is to spout untruths. I mean this as friendly advice.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-02-23-immigration_N.htm

Furthermore just 5 days ago a young 22 year old women died of Swine Flu. She had put off seeing a doctor because she had no insurence. When her condition worsed it was too late to save her. I wonder what GOP whip John Boehner has to say about this? Being that this poor lass was from his district and that he is against any sort of reform.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...tudent-remembered-for-her-passion-315472.html

 

[rattler]

...there is only an estimated 11.6 Million illegals in the country according to the last survey.

Well, the numbers oscillate between 11 and 15 million illegals, to be fair (according what political sided survey pops up when you google "total number illegal immigrants US"), I guess George is relating to the total number of immigrants (which has, of cause, nothing to do with the total number of *illegal* immigrants) and that made 35 million in 2008.

But, be it whatever, those will not charge on your social security (so you ever should have one, which I would sincerely wish for your nations best).

Rattler

 

[mmarsh]

Well, the numbers oscillate between 11 and 15 million illegals, to be fair (according what political sided survey pops up when you google "total number illegal immigrants US"), I guess George is relating to the total number of immigrants (which has, of cause, nothing to do with the total number of *illegal* immigrants) and that made 35 million in 2008.

But, be it whatever, those will not charge on your social security (so you ever should have one, which I would sincerely wish for your nations best).

Rattler

No I dont think that is what he meant at all. He clearly said "illegal" Aliens, not immigrants. It if he meant immigrants thats even worse, as all Americans were immigrants unless they are of Native-American Decent. That would be an insult to all of us, including himself.

And whether its 11 in one survey or 15 in another the point really is moot. The fact remains that they are 49 Million AMERICANS (not illegals) that have no health insurence.

This is a common republican strategy to deal with BAD news: they pretend it doesnt actually exsist. In the past 8 years we have seen conservative think tanks do exactly the same in post-war Iraq (that things were not as bad as they seemed), on Climate Change (that its not man-made), and now on Healthcare (the uninsured dont actually exsist). If they dont want to deal with a problem they pretend the problem isnt actually there. That is, and has been in the past, a disasterous way of governing. Any politican that thinks he can deal with problems by ignoring them has no business in office.

The fact is: we have Millions of Uninsured Americans, I happen to be one of them as I dont have any US healthcare, so technically I am 1 of the 49 million. Do you think people would be complaining about a lack of healthcare to Washington if this wasn't the case???

Its Simple question: the GOP doesnt like the Obama plan. OK, Fine. How does the GOP plan on addressing this then? I want to hear a concrete plan of action as well as an explaination as to why nothing was done in the past 8 years when they ruled the roost.

I am not holding my breath...

 

[George]

This site says 22 Million, & I've heard the numbers I've mentioned. As far as pulling numbers out of thin air the numbers of uninsured has ballooned from a much smaller number, @ least half the 49 million that is now being claimed, as Liberals became more desparate about getting thier scheme passsed & recognized a need for numbers that were more impressive. The Reps. have introd a number of proposals recently, all killed in commitee w/o coverage by the Main stream Media.

 

[mmarsh]

This site says 22 Million, & I've heard the numbers I've mentioned. As far as pulling numbers out of thin air the numbers of uninsured has ballooned from a much smaller number, @ least half the 49 million that is now being claimed, as Liberals became more desparate about getting thier scheme passsed & recognized a need for numbers that were more impressive. The Reps. have introd a number of proposals recently, all killed in commitee w/o coverage by the Main stream Media.

And this site got its information where? Actually it says right on the first sentence of "ticker data sources" that it doesn't do its own research. As compared to CIS 2007 estimate of 11.3 and DHS 11.6 that was in USATODAY and who DID they own research. So right off the bat thats rather telling of your source. And while they bring up alot of URLS (many of which are broken) to support their political views, I didnt see anything that supported the number on their ticker or from what datasource the 22 Million was being calculated from. The only info about their source (only to say its trustworthy from both private and public research, and its open to the public...whatever that means) It doesnt say anywhere where the magic 20 Million number is coming from. How are they getting that calculation? In other words, its hard to do a accurate ticker without actual data.

Another reason I can tell this is bullocks is that this ticker does not take into account the number of illegals that are LEAVING the US which as my article stated is on an increase, it only counts those coming in. Many illegals dont stay permently, they come in take seasonal jobs like fruit picker and go home. This too is not counted for.

Another irregularity. CIS (A Non-profit research site devoted to imigration issues) site says only 500,000 from OTM (other than Mexico). But the CIS website says that Mexican illegals make up 57% percent, which would mean that 43% are not from Mexico. Simple Math, 500,000 is not 43% of 20 Million. That seems to be a major descrepency. And again, who actually did their own research and who didnt?

http://www.cis.org/illegal

Are there illegals in the USA? Of course. But 20 Million? Baloney. Thats larger than the Population of State of New York. Not buying that at all.

Half are being claimed as uninsured by liberals? Who is saying this? The US Census Bureau last year had it at 47 million. But even so, thats still 25 Million Americans. Not exactly a small figure. The number of uninsured American citizens should be at 0.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737

 

[claylc]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....2c5af/36fec0cb58ef42dd?hl=en#36fec0cb58ef42dd

is my latest effort at stirring the political tea pot. Enjoy! I was inspired by this thread but did not want to derail it with my pet bugaboos - the federal debt, taxation, and deficit spending. If you feel motivated to respond, do it on that thread, not this one PLEASE.

Lonnie Courtney Clay

 

[George]

So why did the number of uninsured double after the Dems ran into problems passing Health Care? Kinda like the inflated numbers of homeless & the number of "Homeless dying every day" a number of years ago when the Dems decided homelessness was the cause of the day.

 

[mmarsh]

So why did the number of uninsured double after the Dems ran into problems passing Health Care? Kinda like the inflated numbers of homeless & the number of "Homeless dying every day" a number of years ago when the Dems decided homelessness was the cause of the day.

Once again I have no idea where you are getting your information from. The Number of uninsured stayed stable at 38% throughout the entire Clinton Administration. But the very first year of the Bush Administration it went up to 40 Muillion. Its now at 49 Million. That means almost 10 Million Americans became uninsured.

http://www.familiesusa.org/resource...cans-lost-their-health-insurance-in-2001.html

Another interesting fact is who is trying to fix the situation. Clinton tried to fix the situation in 1996 and his plan was killed off by the same people who are trying to kill off Obama's plan.

So that makes number of attempts to fix Healthcare Dems 2, GOP 0.

 

[George]

Not too long ago the Democrats were pushing HMOs as the great answer to health care. Were they wrong, or did they know HMOs wern't the answer. Did they expected that would increase the problems, (with Govt takeover being the ulmitite goal) so it would play into thier hands?