A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I don't know about the rest of the party but from here it seems like Obama is trying to walk the moderate line.
Tea Party
03USMC
Active member
He appears to be trying at times, but his own party at least Pelosi et al seem to resent that at times. Truthfully I agree with some of his points and can support some of them on some domestic issues, foriegn policy I'm iffy on as well as the CIA issues. It's the fringes stirring the pot on both the left and right.
He talks a lot more moderate than his actions & appointments show that he is. Seems to be way Left in the reality. Check out his 31 Csars, van Jones wasn't the only Radical, & there is no Govt vetting, approval or anything else with them.
03USMC
Active member
Yeah there are serious questions in my mind on a few of the "czars" Sunstein in particular and POTUS's method of appointments under the radar and apparently without much of a vetting process. So much for a transparent administration and pumping out the swamp. Course he is a politician so if his lips are moving he's lying regardless of his party affiliation. Hard cold fact POTUS, the Senate and the house give a warm bucket of piss about you and me only their own freakin agenda and "vision".
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Damn everything is so screwed...
mmarsh
Active member
USMC03
In case you didnt notice, My little "rant" just torpedoed your arguement that Middle America is being ignored. They are not ignoring Middle America, they just dont share your values and thats hardly the samething. If the Democrats were ignoring Middle America they would not have won the past election. There are Lots of liberals in rural Middle America such as like Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin are all liberal bastions. And there are huge Liberal Bastions of liberals in Ohio, Missouri and Pennslyvania.
As for the rest, its true that on a few social wedge issues like guns there are differences, but not overall. Conservative Democrats still remain true to the core liberal principals. Do you honestly think that true conservatives would stay in a political party that is the polar opposite to their philosophy? Do you think the DCCC would support for candidates they dont share a similar political thought? Urban and Rural Democrats agree more than they disagree. Thats true even for the "avowed" Consevative Democrats who by the way come from states with tiny populations and thus represent only a tiny proportion of the Democratic party.
As for the "nanny" state, thats quite hilarious statement because as I have told you before its the conservatives states that receive FAR more government assistence that the liberals ones do. It is ironic that those that complain the most about "Big Government" and the "Nanny state" are always the first one in line for a government handout. Look at Sarah Palin, she certainly talked a good line about how she refused government aid until several revealing documents in her handwritting showed that she was a huge porker. It was that type of blatent hypocracy that cost the GOP the White House.
And finally you act like I have never lived in Middle America. I lived 4 years in Indiana, which I can tell is still ground zero of the Klu Klux Klan. I can tell you for a fact that racism was still going on when I was there. Do I think everybody in Middle America is a racist? No. Does the GOP cater and coddle to those who are: Yes. Do people tell themselves that they arent racist even though they are? Yes.
Not at you specifically USMC03, but If you want people to stop calling you racist, they stop acting like a racist and moreover you have to stop protecting those that clearly are. You cant blame people on the left is all they see from Middle America are people calling Obama a ni***er.
George
If Obama is so Liberal, then explain why the liberals (people like Keith Olbermann) are talking about running a primary challenger against him in 2012? The rumors are that it might be Russ Feingold. If you were ever to visit the real liberal websites, to say that the far-left are dissappointed in him is a massive understatement. Obama has compromised liberal positions on interrogation, on Iraq, on Afghanistan, and if he drops the public option of his healthcare plan he risks outright rebellion.
Obama problem isnt the conservatives, its the Liberals of his own party.
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
mmarsh
Active member
Redneck
Two of My favorite examples:
1. They lady that said: "We hate socialized medicine! We don't want it! Oh, and leave our Medicare and Medicaid alone!
2. Senator Mitch McConnell (amonst several anti-healthcare reform people who have done the same)
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell stated: "a government takeover of health care" would take away the care that people already have and are perfectly satisfied with." In its place, the senator said, would be "a system in which care and treatment will be either delayed or denied."
And yet the senator had "Delayed or Denied" surgury was performed on his arteries at the National Naval Medical Center in 2003. So apparently what was Ok for the senator is terrible idea for everyone else.
Two of My favorite examples:
1. They lady that said: "We hate socialized medicine! We don't want it! Oh, and leave our Medicare and Medicaid alone!
2. Senator Mitch McConnell (amonst several anti-healthcare reform people who have done the same)
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell stated: "a government takeover of health care" would take away the care that people already have and are perfectly satisfied with." In its place, the senator said, would be "a system in which care and treatment will be either delayed or denied."
And yet the senator had "Delayed or Denied" surgury was performed on his arteries at the National Naval Medical Center in 2003. So apparently what was Ok for the senator is terrible idea for everyone else.
They know that he IS one of them & that is why they're upset with him. Just after the election the Communist Party USA website was extatic about his win. Blacks were saying after the election they didn't have to worry about house payments, car payments, gasoline, ect. Then they see him give billions to banks, car Companys. They didn't get the huge hand out & are upset also.
03USMC
Active member
marsh I think your over playing the whole huge liberal bastions thing in regards to middle america. Case in point Missouri. St Louis within metro and St louis County is decidely liberal, Kansas City in the metro area and Columbia (peoples republic of) are also decidely liberal. But when you leave these areas demographics change decidely even among registered Dem's and take on a more moderate to conservative slant. So while these bastions have an effect over certain districts it's hard for them to sway the entire state.
mmarsh
Active member
Made a mistake last post, shouldn't have said rural. indeed rural areas in ANY state tends to drift moderate to conservative.
HOWEVER, even in Middle America density tends to be thicker the cities than out in the rural areas. The further out you get the less dense the population becomes. For example: in Missouri you have a population of about 6 million. Of which 3 million are from the Saint Louis Metro Area. Kansas City another 1/2 Million. That means that almost 55% of your state lives in the metro areas of those two cities alone and will be leaning democrat.
BTW, with the exception of Truman and Obama, no democrat has ever become president without winning Missouri. That's how important those liberal votes are.
Also keep in mind that in the mid-west Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, etc that is a very industrialized area -meaning labor unions which have always been the backbone of the democrat votes. Democrats cannot win elections with just NY and CA alone, New England is too small (except for MA) and FL is too much of a swing state. They need those Center States in order to win.
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03USMC
Active member
Its true that St Louis in and of itself can swing certian national and state level elections in and of itself thats why Mc Caskille represents my district, she won the City but didn't fair as well in certian areas of St Louis county or the rest of the district. Same with current govener winning the populated areas, although to be truthful "Honest Jay" was the lesser of two scumbags, even I voted for him.
There's a lot of dumb sheep getting led about, there's a lot of manipulation of various "hot button" factions who get to be the pawns in a battle that probably goes against their best interests.
I'm always a bit perplexed when there's someone who claims to be a super patriot...then wants to be part of a world of paranoid warlords. Seems the process does work okay. If you LIKE the idea of the richest,most armed,most aggressive doing as they please...it's been done. The key point of the USA was to get AWAY from monarchy,aristocracy,official religion,etc. The idea wasn't a return to no "society" as such. We had our run with unchecked "free market" and got the "Robber Barons".sweatshops,sharecroppers.....a lot of corruption. We got a look at how the Nazis and Stalinists operated.
Are Tea Parties really about discussing health care and how it's just fine as is (or not) or is it the Rush Limbaugh Wing venting?
I've always wondered about the Patriot who's obsessed with finding any excuse to NOT pay taxes. Even more puzzling is the Patriot who's obsessed with having a personal arsenal because he hates and fears his neighbors.
It seems that Patriot ought to focus on us as one big team. A "Me First" attitude, an elitism,based on MY religion is right and you bastards are tools,or my race belongs here,your's does not,or I'm richer or meaner or more willing to exploit....How is that Patriotic? Is a few flag bumper stickers all it really takes? I'm fine with the symbols of patriotism but I find it disturbing when some sociopathic Neo-Nazi types wrap themselves in OUR flag. i feel patriotic when I'm for an idea that's good for Americans,and not just me.
There's plenty of examples of feudalism,with a thin shell of "capitalism" about, just as many "Marxist/Communist" societies quickly transition into Facist/Feudal states where the "workers" end up valued less than the machinery. The label may be deceptive.
mmarsh
Active member
Damn Good Post Redwood!
If you attend those who watch these so called Tea Parties you'll notice that they come to protest a variety of issues, weather it be Taxes, Healthcare, Guns and yes Obama's skin color as well. Which ever issue they are there to protest you will also notice how completely uninformed they are on it. Most simply rely on slogans like Communist or Socialist without really knowing what those words are, only that they are 'bad'. Another sign of mental manipulation is the often repeated catchphrases and by-lines used by rightwing media hosts.
Another noticable fact is that all these Tee-Bagers only became vocal when a liberal Democrat was elected. The fact is Obama has been in office for less than a year but many of the issues the teabaggers mention, high taxes, bank bailouts, high deficiets were done under previous administrations -and most notably the last one. If they were so concerned about what is going on in Washington why did they wait 8 months after the last president left office? Coinidentially -why didnt the rightwing media mention it sooner either. The answer is pretty obvious.
The Obama administration is proposing some new programs that will cost money that is true, and they could have been abit more open about how they planned to pay for is also true. But to suggest that Obama is sosme out-of-control spender after the previous 8 years of the most wasteful Administration in US history is proof of either incrediable ignorance or mental manipulation.
Say what? Obama is some sort of out of control spender? Where would you get that idea, after all he's only spent in 7 months what Bush spent in what, 4-5 years? Obama is going to double the National Debt in 4 years, took Bush 8. Obama, Pelosi & Reed are reminding people that when it comes to bloated spending & deficits the Republicans are rank amatures. Right wing media(talk radio) was not happy with Bush's big spending big govt Republicans nor the huge bail outs.
mmarsh
Active member
So far he has actually only spent about $787 Billion and that was in economic relief to jump-start the economy (he had to do this, we are in a very nasty recession at the moment). The rest of the money for new programs has only been proposed (like healthcare), not actually voted, remember Congress votes on spending bills remember not the president. So your claims about Obama spending more than Bush are all speculation, as of right now (not what *might* happen) he is not even in bush's league. In fact the claim he is a spender is not even accurate because the president cannot spend a single dime on gum without Congress saying so.
Secondly one must look at what the money was spent on, in Bush's case. It was two wars, and 2 huge handouts to Millionaires. none of which had any benefit to the country. Obama's spending is carefully designed overall to reduce the Federal deficit by jump starting the economy and by reducing the costs of expensive programs like Medicare. Obamas heathcare plan will cost $65 Billion annually. Medicare cost $421 Billion in 2007 alone.
As for the rightwing media being unhappy with Bush's spending...please. The rightwing media only started to bash Bush (a little bit) when it became increasing obvious that the GOP was going to lose the 2008 election. Aside from that they were Bush's largest cheerleaders. Where was the rightwing media for the 2001+2003 taxcuts? I remember quite well, they were right behind Bush supporting him. And is gluttonest defense suppliments "Support Our Troops" slogans because the smokescreen for the largest government programs in history.
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03, how can Marsh (or anyone) over play the severity of what the government is doing? I don't know about you, but I know I would feel the worst level of insult if I was in your boots.
Here you guys are, obeying orders, fighting, killing, dying, IN THE NAME OF PRESERVING AMERICA AND AMERICAN FREEDOMS! Yet the same bastards here stateside that give you those same orders are also, behind your back, STRIPPING Americans of those same rights.
Do you understand where I'm coming from, or am I the last American left alive?
Don't get me wrong 03, man I value you, your men and men like you that are willing to go that extra mile for America. But I also know so well what it's like to be insulted like that (though on the civilian level, and a different issue). All I cared for was a chance to beat my supervisor's..... enough said. I was beyond infuriated.
Maybe it's just me, 03, but I don't see March overplaying anything.
Here you guys are, obeying orders, fighting, killing, dying, IN THE NAME OF PRESERVING AMERICA AND AMERICAN FREEDOMS! Yet the same bastards here stateside that give you those same orders are also, behind your back, STRIPPING Americans of those same rights.
Do you understand where I'm coming from, or am I the last American left alive?
Don't get me wrong 03, man I value you, your men and men like you that are willing to go that extra mile for America. But I also know so well what it's like to be insulted like that (though on the civilian level, and a different issue). All I cared for was a chance to beat my supervisor's..... enough said. I was beyond infuriated.
Maybe it's just me, 03, but I don't see March overplaying anything.
mmarsh
Active member
All 03 and I are having is a heated but polite disagreement. He's stated his opinion, I've stated mine. Thats it. Nobody is forcing him to agree with me, or visa versa, and neither him nor I said anything that should have insulted the other...or you for that matter. In fact, this is one of the rare occasions of how these political forums should actually work. Two sides express their opposite views which they are passionate about, but yet remain polite and respectful to the other. Frankly I would much rather have discussions with USMC03 along these lines than have it decend into the regular screamfests which many of these threads here dissolve into. Or worse, have this site turn into DU or Freerepublic where only the ideological sheep are allowed do anything else but bleat their agreement together in unison. Any opinion is worthless unless you are willing to put it to the test.
Furthermore what does the discussion of our soldiers fighting overseas have anything at all to do with the topic of this thread??? It sounds more like your're annoyed because I said something you disagree with or that I disagreed with 03 in general. America isnt North Korea, we are a country that has a military, not a militarized country. We can disagree with anyone here, even with those in uniform. My father and Grandfather both wore the same uniform you do.
Secondly you mentioned that tired old rightwing line about "freedoms" being taken away from you? Which Freedoms specifically are you referring to? What are these freedoms? I'd like some concrete proof about your rights being suspended by this phantom menace you are talking about. If things were really as oppressive as FOX NEWS is telling you, do you really think you'd be allowed by the government to spout off like you are doing now? Do you think FOX and Rush would be allowed to broadcast? Its really pathetic when Americans today rant on about loss of "supposed" rights. They should have a discussion with someone from Myanmar, North Korea or someone like my Grandmother who lived under Nazi occupation or spent some time in one of Stalin's Gulag.
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