Taiwan and China - China's poor panda




 
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Boots
 
May 10th, 2005  
ac
 

Topic: Taiwan and China - China's poor panda




Hello Everyone, I am a Taiwanese, and my home country is Taiwan.

Regarding to recent so-called historical meetings between Taiwanese polititians and Chinese leaders, I have the following to say:

The only good gesture from China in this matter can only be an open / unconditional dialogue with the demarcated elected Taiwanese President – Mr Chen Shui-bian. As Chen Shui-bian has continuously call for talk with China unconditionally. Those pandas do not mean a thing and it should be kept safe in China, not as a tool for political game. In addition, China should remove all 500+ missiles aiming at Taiwan at the moment.

Taiwanese democracy did not come overnight, it was a 50years struggle against the KMT government, and many lives were lost to root the young democracy in Taiwan. President Chen Shui-bian was one of the founding member pushing Taiwan toward becoming a true demarcated country, and during the course of this transformation, he and his family suffered tremendously. And, many Taiwanese are forever grateful to him. So, if China try to take Taiwan forcefully, real Taiwanese will fight to protect their homeland.

The reason why many Taiwanese did not take recent China visits kindly is because the leader of PFP - James Soong and KMT - Lien Chan, were two of most corrupt politicians during the crack down of demarcated movement in Taiwan. And their last two defeats in the Taiwanese Presidential elections are indications of the end of their political lives, however, the recent China visits may change that, and many in Taiwan certainly do not want to see the return of those two corrupt politicians back to power.

If China’s intention is a peaceful unification with Taiwan and for the “good” of Taiwanese people, as Chinese officials often say. They should not ally themselves with PFP and KMT, by doing so, they have back-fired, and resulted further mistrust from Taiwanese.

I do believe that the problem is China, sooner can there be a democracted China, the world would be a much safer place.
May 10th, 2005  
Zyca
 
 
Hello there~

First, welcome! Second, be careful! Taiwan-China topics are sensitive and quite often lead to locked threads. I'm sure if you stayed long enough, you'll know what I mean.

I have no comment yet regarding the visits of KMT/PFP party leaders to China. I will wait until Sung goes back and decide. I felt that Lein failed to address the real concerns of the people in Taiwan (never mentioned missiles, never mentioned Anti-Secession law), almost like he forgot what he went to China for besides wagging his tails. The impact of the visits will be shown in the next couple months, we shall wait and see how things develop.
May 10th, 2005  
Boobies
 
 

Topic: Corrupt?


Don't know what you mean by corruption. I am suire both parties done their deeds in corruption.

To immediate opening talks with what Zyca mention can be untactful and stir unstability further in the region. It is maybe a failure to you, yet the visits were targeting to calm down both sides. And it just maybe served a strategic value. Furthermore, the value of calming down both sides can save many American and Japanese soldiers lives if war broke out because TW and China being stuborn about it.

Taiwanese whom oppose to independence are also Taiwanse for their roots are in TW. Simply discredit their roots because political differences are rather brutal and undemocratic. How can a country be democratic if it can't tolerate other beliefs and political stance, granted they are not extreme destructive?
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Boots
May 11th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
simply when serving the majority the minorities are ignored and their demands are not heard


taiwanese are being played as the political chess pieces, it doesnt matter if its democratic, as long as its a us ally it will be supported upon

i have seen through this topic, and it is nothing but political, masscres human rights whatever, what really matters is diplomatic relationship between china and usa
May 11th, 2005  
Whispering Death
 
 
Madeinchina I think it's important that I correct you on one small point.

Well, I think the reason that the US has continued to support Taiwan through so many administrations is not because she is needed as a US ally or neccessarily that the US has wanted Taiwan to be democratic (I say this with the exception that the current Bush administration actually does operate for the purpose). In terms of freedom taiwan is small and not likely to cause geopolitical problems in the region for the US if she goes communist nor is she needed as a millitary ally for US asian intrests and Japan is a far superior nation for that.

Instad the reason for continued US involvement is mostly to hold up a promise made during the Korean War. She holds up this prommise partly because America wants to always hold up her promisses and partly to punnish Chinese involvement in the Korean conflict so long ago. So, basically it boils down to hard-nosed tradition at this point, not necessarily for ideals or strategic resources.
May 11th, 2005  
CABAL
 
 
Hello there. It would be greatly appreciated if you post your welcoming in the Welcoming Center before jumping in.

Secondly, as Zyca have said "be careful". You have stated very strong criticisms and these Taiwan/China discussions have a tendency to fling itself off-topic.

While reading your arguement, I would like to comment on it.

Quote:
President Chen Shui-bian was one of the founding member pushing Taiwan toward becoming a true demarcated country, and during the course of this transformation, he and his family suffered tremendously. And, many Taiwanese are forever grateful to him. So, if China try to take Taiwan forcefully, real Taiwanese will fight to protect their homeland.
Taiwan is already a so-called true "Democracy" and there is no further need to achieve this. Chen Shui-bian is merely a political leader who supports independence and supports alienating from the Mainland while ignoring the 1992 Consensus.

Quote:
The reason why many Taiwanese did not take recent China visits kindly is because the leader of PFP - James Soong and KMT - Lien Chan, were two of most corrupt politicians during the crack down of demarcated movement in Taiwan. And their last two defeats in the Taiwanese Presidential elections are indications of the end of their political lives, however, the recent China visits may change that, and many in Taiwan certainly do not want to see the return of those two corrupt politicians back to power.
I fully disagree. While reading your statements, I take it that you must be the younger generation of Taiwan. There is no evidence of Lien Chan and James Soong being corrupt. Their last defeats in the Taiwanese Presidential Election resulted in riots and protests. Speaking of the past elections, Chen Shui Bian only won by a marginal 30,000 votes, which indicates Taiwan is a very polarized country like many western democracies around the world. The reason for Lien and Soong to visit the mainland is to re-establish relations and more importantly to solve the issue through mutual consensus. Such an ice-breaking visit would definetily tone down the Mainland's aggresiveness in the Taiwan Straight Issue and I think it was very wise for Lien and Soong to do so.

Quote:
I do believe that the problem is China, sooner can there be a democracted China, the world would be a much safer place.
No, the problem is not China and a Democratic nation does not necessarily solve issues like this. Even if China becomes a Democracy, they would still aim to retake Taiwan by force if they see as necessary. Rationalize on this a bit.
May 11th, 2005  
Zyca
 
 
Regardless of Sung or Lien's intentions, we'll see what the governments do in the aftermath. People who support them will say they went to promote peace, while people who oppose them will say they went because they wanted more bargaining power. It's still too early to say whether the trips were good for Taiwan or bad for Taiwan at this stage. One thing is for certain: if Taiwan-China relationship improves, Sung and Lien will want all the credit; if not, they will blame the government for not following through. They have made a very smart move (so did China's Hu for agreeing to meet with them) and put a lot of pressure on president Chen, we'll see what kind of action he'll take in response.
May 14th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
as song said: we are all chinese and we need to unite

i think we should let this issue hang for a while, u no, no bashing from the two sides
May 19th, 2005  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Many years of government controlled propaganda on both sides have made the Taiwan Question into one of the biggest "disasters just waiting to happen" situations on the planet. The KMT preached a thorough anti-PRC line, most of which bordered on insane wishful thinking. The PRC drummed the "Taiwan/the KMT has robbed us and must be punished," transitioning that into the current "Any move by Taiwan to declare independence absolutely means inevitable bloody war!" Now the media machines are not in control of it anymore. They've done their job far too well. The KMT has lead a surprising portion of Taiwan to damn most association with China: "China has not given Taiwan anything but tyrany and ruin." pointing to the recent past. The threat of overwhelming force on the PRC's part certainly doesn't inspire love for China and Chinese heritage in the hearts of Taiwanese. Quite the opposite. It does, however, keep many Taiwanese opinions quieter that they would otherwise be. The PRC has so thoroughly convinced its people of its own stand, that the PRC government would probably be rapidly overthrown if it didn't instantly invade or otherwise punish Taiwan the moment they declare their independence. For that matter, the the people of China would probably welcome an invasion of Taiwan if it happened tomorrow and didn't factor in anything at all about Tawianese Independence.

Both sides need to do a lot to diffuse the situation. Its an ugly mess and I certainly don't envy the goverment leaders the difficult job their in for. What I'm not entirely convinced of is either side being strongly committed to really and truly healing the situation, instead of making their own demands and insisting that they get their way. In other words, just making matters worse. The ball is in Bejing's court right now. What are they going to do? Lets please have some good news out of the whole messy situation for a change ....
May 20th, 2005  
MadeInChina
 
lol as long as chenshuibien and his party is destoryed, thenw e shal lhave peace