So, since that is answered back to topic... I'll try to post a more objective comment now:

The t-90 certainly is a very good piece of technology and amongst the best in the modern world today- everything else would be lieing- there may be some advantages of certain other tanks or other specialties but that's just details to my mind- no doubt it is a well developed and powerfull tank that is well above standarts!

Of course I am proud of German tank production and German tanks in general (every time period) that's why I would personally favour the Leopard 2 and being in the German forces that makes quite sense .

Zastava, have you ever stopped to think why most people with any level of maturity don't really like Russia? Because historically those guys were bad news. A lot of countries who were supported by the US are anti-American now because of socialist movements but often these folks are the generation that never actually got help from America. The generation that actually was there when America came to save the day are still grateful.
The Eastern Europeans who directly were under the control of the Russians HATE Russia almost without exception (well maybe with the exception of Belarus who are actually Russian anyway). If you look at it, the only people in the former Soviet Republics who like Russia are actually ethnic Russians who live there.
So before you start saying you'll side with them for being under represented, why don't you do some research? You might as well go on and support the Taliban and Al Qaeda because they seem to be VERY underrepresented right now. Or any of the despotic dictatorships in Africa.

The T-90 might not be the T-72s that Iraq had in '91, but remember that the M1A2 and the new line of Leos aren't exactly the M1s, M1A1s and M60 MBTs that rolled into Iraq in '91 either.

Originally Posted by ObjSRgtLw

So, since that is answered back to topic... I'll try to post a more objective comment now:

The t-90 certainly is a very good piece of technology and amongst the best in the modern world today- everything else would be lieing- there may be some advantages of certain other tanks or other specialties but that's just details to my mind- no doubt it is a well developed and powerfull tank that is well above standarts!

Of course I am proud of German tank production and German tanks in general (every time period) that's why I would personally favour the Leopard 2 and being in the German forces that makes quite sense .

Are you saying that the systems in the T-90 are able to compete with modern Western MBT's?

I have always liked Russian armour but the events of the last 20 years have indicated that while they may have the armament to knock out any tank in production they do not have the systems to compete in terms of night/poor visability, stabilisation and targeting, this invariably means that for a Russian tank to knock out its Western counterpart it has to be much closer than the Western tank needs to be.

I'm not an expert but I think their armour is better...? In German it's called 'Reakitvpanzerung' something like active armour

Actually Obj, don't be fooled by technological or economic advances over social maturity. Korea and China, though economically developed (and in the case of Korea, technologically as well to a degree) social maturity is still not quite there.

As for tech that we're talking about... ever stopped to think why we use US, European, Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese Personal Computers but never Russian ones? There's a reason for that.

Seems that you did read my latter post which I deleted because it was crap and I somehow got emotional .
Just ignore that one, yes you are quite right that there are huge differences in many countries. Though russian scientists and other intellectual minds were and still are amongst the best, we shouldn't forget that, just read about the inteligentsia (don't know the english word correctly). Of course there aways were political problems that may have narrowed the whole development...

Originally Posted by ObjSRgtLw

OK, I'm not a technician but cold war is over and I don't think they would invest money in new projects if the result was less efficient than an Abrahams or a Leopard.
Whatever stop with the east- west b******t- believe me I get to have that discussion every day- Germany was and in many heads still is the total frontier, it's about time we start thinking about real problems, not the past things that so many people seem to want back, enough people have suffered under the cold war so be happy that it's over and stop with arguments like- "it's from russia so it must be cheap communist metal crap".
Define "the modern west", there's no more worlds between west or east, in many ways countries like china are more modern than we are...
I'm not targeting you Monty and certainly not anyone else personally, I just felt that this had to be said.

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news but but it is broken down into east/west because there was a clear divide in "fine" technology and it is much easier than saying "former communist block countries", for example no one doubts the quality of Russian small arms but given the option of purchasing Russian electronics or Japanese I would suggest that 99% of the world would buy Japanese.

The fact is that until the perception of superior western technology is broken by some proof of Russian or Chinese parity you will always have these issues.

There has been a long history of Russian and to a limited extent Chinese weapons systems being touted as the new standard and the great step forward over the big bad west only to be exposed time and again as giant piles of crap and as far as the Chinese go until they stop trying to steal everyone elses ideas and making cheap knock off copies no one is going to take them seriously.

Originally Posted by EladBell

almost every Israeli has Internet,u do relize we do not travel by camals any more right? since the hmm i donnu 1920s.
Israel is a very developed country,if we are in the desert that dosent mean why cant live,Israel developed the most ipressive Agriculture in the world,given the fact we grow crops in the desert

I wasnt trying to degrade Israel, I was just wondering.

Zastava, have you ever stopped to think why most people with any level of maturity don't really like Russia? Because historically those guys were bad news. A lot of countries who were supported by the US are anti-American now because of socialist movements but often these folks are the generation that never actually got help from America. The generation that actually was there when America came to save the day are still grateful.
The Eastern Europeans who directly were under the control of the Russians HATE Russia almost without exception (well maybe with the exception of Belarus who are actually Russian anyway). If you look at it, the only people in the former Soviet Republics who like Russia are actually ethnic Russians who live there.

And Americans are good news?
Actually, mainly Latvians/Lithuanians etc hate RUSSIAN PEOPLE, other countries that were under Stalins/Krushcevs/Brezhnev/Gorbachovs thumb simply hate Communism [Cant blame them, they had to cope with the Brezhnev stagnation], not the Russian people themselves.
I know plenty of eastern-europeans [Mainly from Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania] that dont mind the Russians, but just dislike Communism. And I also know plenty that LIKE Russia, but not Communism.
I also know much, much more people that hate the USA more than they hate Russia [In Australia aswell, not just our lovely "Neo-Fascist Serbia"]

As for tech that we're talking about... ever stopped to think why we use US, European, Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese Personal Computers but never Russian ones? There's a reason for that.

Every person I know in my school uses Kaspersky AV, and they say, including all my computing teachers, that it is the most able AV there is. Theres a reason for that aswell, isnt there?

Maybe that's all you can afford, because no one here I know uses that stuff.

America good news? Oh yeah you bet. For one thing, thanks to America, I'm not living under a despotic Communist dictatorship, starving to death under the fear of being dragged away to death camps by the secret police.
Or more immediately, when the Americans showed up in Incheon after the landings were successful, the people had nothing to eat so they just delivered a seemingly endless supply of flour. People survived on boiling moistened and flattened flour boiled in water.
Or even going further back than that, if it weren't for the Americans, half of this entire continent could very well still belong to the Japanese (if they gave up on getting the rest of China and just focused on the key areas).
Or the Jews in Europe would have been wiped out.
Or Western Europe would have suffered greatly under the USSR.
The list goes on mate... and it is VERY VERY long.
America's problems with the world as of late is mostly from the post-Cold War era. There are things about America that I'm not too proud of but usually it has to do with the industries and corporations rather than the country itself.
It's funny you mention some Eastern Europeans who like Russia because I happen to meet a lot of Eastern Europeans and they f*cking hate Russia. The ones who usually like Russia are the ones with serious problems, like Serbia and Belarus.
I know you have a soft spot for Serbia but genocide is usually a great way to land on anyone's sh*t list.

And although you didn't wish to denigrate Israel, it did reflect upon your ignorance. Keep up the good work.

Why don't you save on the posting because I'll just summerize what you've posted in this forum so far: ZOMFG RUSSIA **** **** SPETZNAS I **** OVER T-90 ZOMFG IT'S RUSSIAN DOWN WITH AMERICA RUSSIAN COMPUTERS BEST IN THE WORLD, UNDERREPRESENTED NOT FAIR ZOMFG RUSSIA **** ****.

Thanks to America, I can barely f*cken afford anything as of late.

Same goes with my cousins in Albury, same goes to so many others I know in Australia, same goes to my f*cken sister in Serbia and various other family members and family friends in Serbia.

Actually, the only thing I can thank your beloved USA is for creating an utter pile of bull as of late. What else? Oh yeha, your CIA is pretty much just as bad as the KGB aswell [Though not as bad as NKVD].

I might aswell thank America aswell for 1999. Why didnt you bomb Tirane aswell? The reason the JNA fought against Albanians was because they started killing everyone that was Serbian in Kosovo, and commited crimes against humanity. Thus America plays along and bombs Belgrade, bombing various point of absolutely no military and strategic value, and dropping uranium f*cken bombs on us aswell.

Also, I give great thanks to America for torturing and the massacre of countless Vietnamese people in the 60's. Good on ya.

And if you ever picked up a book and read, you will notice that the Soviet Union:
1. Wasnt a Communist or Socialist Society
2. Did not support Marxism/Leninism
3. Stalin was a authoritarian dictator, not a Socialist, Communist or Marxist.

Sure, base your opinions on Communism on the USSR when it was pretty much the f*cken opposite. I never notice anyone base Socialism on Tito's Yugoslavia? Why is that? Maybe because over there life was good when Tito lead Yugoslavia? Of course, though, According to the accurate summary of Communism made by Americans, Communism = Evil and thus no good can come out of it.

Only thing the USSR was right about was banning religion, though it failed epicly and sprouted more hate.

And im curious, I dont know nothing about Israel so I want to learn something. Is there something wrong with that?

Oh wait, obviously, beeing from the East, I do not deserve an Education and am unworthy to be called a human.

Funny, because I lived in Eastern Europe for 2 years, and my family have lived in eastern europe for much much MUCH longer than I have. Lots of Europeans hate Russia, lots of them Like Russia.

And for one, I DONT LOVE RUSSIA YOU F*CKEN GIGOLO GET IT THROUGH YOUR SKULL, MATE!

Putin is an ass, Medvedev is an Ass, Ivanov is an ass. Voila, want me to smother it on f*cken toast for you?