1). Are there any IMF members who supported then Senator Obama in 2008 but no longer support him and why?

2). For those who voted in the 2008 US Presidential election for Obama, will you vote for him again in 2012 and why/why not?

Originally Posted by Padre

1). Are there any IMF members who supported then Senator Obama in 2008 but no longer support him and why?

2). For those who voted in the 2008 US Presidential election for Obama, will you vote for him again in 2012 and why/why not?

Yes. I voted for him in 2008 and will most likely vote for him next year too though this time holding my nose. Ill explain that later...

First of all Understand that Obama is NOT a liberal. He is where the GOP used to be before they went off the deep end. His pro-business, pro-wall street, pro military intervention, pro executive authority (Patriot Act, Gitmo, renditions etc). Only on Domestic Social issues would Obama be considered Liberal. Even on HCR, (The Mitt Romney plan), Obama pushed for a plan that took federal tax money and gave it to the Heath Insurance industry. No liberal would ever support such an idea.

Democrats thought Obama would be a true Liberal, but in fact hes more like a center-right Republican. Again look where he is on THE ISSUES, he is not a Liberal politician.

A few years ago I had a discussion with Team Infidel about Bush. TI made the point that a leader must know when to draw the line, stop listening to what others stated and make a decison as CnC. I made the point that in Bush's case, his stubborn refusal to listen to ANYBODY on ANYTHING lead to the disaster conclusion that it did. Both arguements were in fact correct.

Obama is PRECISELY the opposite of Bush, whereas Bush compromised on NOTHING, Obama compromises on EVERYTHING. His failure to toe the line on anything has been a disaster. The Debt deal, The Public Option on HCR, the 2010 Bush Taxcuts, Both Wars, everytime Obama has given up everything and gotten nothing in return because in Obama's mind a bad deal is better than no deal and all. Such a philiosophy not only makes for bad policy it also emboldens his political enemies.

My nickname for Obama is "Neville Chamberlain". Because everytime faced with Extremism (which is what the GOP has become), Obama proceeds to make a deal and negotiate in hopes to appease the monster. What Obama doesn't get, is that the Radical right doesn't want to negotiate they wish simply his destruction. You just cant negotiate with these type of people, and Obama lacks what Bush and LBJ had: the ability to show the opposition who is boss. Obama's simply too much of a nice guy, if he wanted to he could make the republicans lives even more miserable then they are making him. Obama is all carrot and no stick.

As for 2012, yes Ill probably vote for him. Why? Because look at the Republican alternative. Its simply a joke.

Not a single Republican so far announced deserves to be President. They are either Frauds, Hypocrites, crooks, Idiots, bumblers, or Zealots. The party has gotton so extreme that the GOP is now in serious risk of LOSING the House in 2012 as people have finally seen what exactly "crazy" will give them.

The funny thing is, the best candidate the GOP has, is in fact the guy whose currently in the White House. In fact, I wouldnt be at all surprised if that wasn't the RNC's plan all along.

But Obama won't win reelection (which I think he will), so much as the GOP will lose it. Which is a shame, because Obama deserves to lose.

The real question is if the liberals push a primary challenger candidate as they are threatening to do. Bernie Sanders, Russ Fiengold, Hillary Clinton, even Chuck Hagel (whose a Liberal Republican), are the names being floated.

If Obama faced one of those in a primary, I would almost certainly vote against him.

I never thought I would say this but if McCain had to be defeated in 2008, I would now have preferred Hiliary Clinton rather than Obama as the victor. I think she was to the right of Obama (comparing their votes as US senators, and Obama's views when he was in the state legislature), but, back then, I preferred Obama to Clinton as the democratic nominee as Clinton seemed so shallow and easy to bend the truth (eg. she dodged live fire when visiting Afghanistan) but now Obama appears such a weak personality and Clinton is more gutsy.

I think you're right about GOP alternatives Mmarsh. Rubio of Florida could be the Latinos' Obama in 2012, maybe.

It wasn't this way before but like Mmarsh said, the Republican Party has just gone a bit crazy lately. The Democrats are conservative enough.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

Yes. I voted for him in 2008 and will most likely vote for him next year too though this time holding my nose. Ill explain that later...

First of all Understand that Obama is NOT a liberal. He is where the GOP used to be before they went off the deep end. His pro-business, pro-wall street, pro military intervention, pro executive authority (Patriot Act, Gitmo, renditions etc). Only on Domestic Social issues would Obama be considered Liberal. Even on HCR, (The Mitt Romney plan), Obama pushed for a plan that took federal tax money and gave it to the Heath Insurance industry. No liberal would ever support such an idea.

Democrats thought Obama would be a true Liberal, but in fact hes more like a center-right Republican. Again look where he is on THE ISSUES, he is not a Liberal politician.

A few years ago I had a discussion with Team Infidel about Bush. TI made the point that a leader must know when to draw the line, stop listening to what others stated and make a decison as CnC. I made the point that in Bush's case, his stubborn refusal to listen to ANYBODY on ANYTHING lead to the disaster conclusion that it did. Both arguements were in fact correct.

Obama is PRECISELY the opposite of Bush, whereas Bush compromised on NOTHING, Obama compromises on EVERYTHING. His failure to toe the line on anything has been a disaster. The Debt deal, The Public Option on HCR, the 2010 Bush Taxcuts, Both Wars, everytime Obama has given up everything and gotten nothing in return because in Obama's mind a bad deal is better than no deal and all. Such a philiosophy not only makes for bad policy it also emboldens his political enemies.

My nickname for Obama is "Neville Chamberlain". Because everytime faced with Extremism (which is what the GOP has become), Obama proceeds to make a deal and negotiate in hopes to appease the monster. What Obama doesn't get, is that the Radical right doesn't want to negotiate they wish simply his destruction. You just cant negotiate with these type of people, and Obama lacks what Bush and LBJ had: the ability to show the opposition who is boss. Obama's simply too much of a nice guy, if he wanted to he could make the republicans lives even more miserable then they are making him. Obama is all carrot and no stick.

As for 2012, yes Ill probably vote for him. Why? Because look at the Republican alternative. Its simply a joke.

Not a single Republican so far announced deserves to be President. They are either Frauds, Hypocrites, crooks, Idiots, bumblers, or Zealots. The party has gotton so extreme that the GOP is now in serious risk of LOSING the House in 2012 as people have finally seen what exactly "crazy" will give them.

The funny thing is, the best candidate the GOP has, is in fact the guy whose currently in the White House. In fact, I wouldnt be at all surprised if that wasn't the RNC's plan all along.

But Obama won't win reelection (which I think he will), so much as the GOP will lose it. Which is a shame, because Obama deserves to lose.

The real question is if the liberals push a primary challenger candidate as they are threatening to do. Bernie Sanders, Russ Fiengold, Hillary Clinton, even Chuck Hagel (whose a Liberal Republican), are the names being floated.

If Obama faced one of those in a primary, I would almost certainly vote against him.

You got to be sheeting me! Mr I sought out Marxist professor & student groups & The private sector is the enemy is pro business???? Obviously once in Power Obama realized how screwed up his campaign promises were when the Community Organizer got to see the real world. The Reps off the deep end? A govt living with in its means, not borrowing 40% of what it is spending when the US Govt is the biggest debtor nation on the planet, with Libs still wanting to fund more welfare State BS? This is so pathetic. Just ignore the warnings & spend us into oblivion. Like I said before, the Libs are upset he isn't wrecking the Country faster. How dare the TEA Party shine a light on the debt disaster & wake up @ least some to the tidal wave decending on us, but business as usual in the mind of the Libs. Obama is Center-Right, now that is truly entertaining, hate to think of what drooling maniac would qualify as far left if Obama is center-Right. How many self-described Communists has he appointed? 3-4?
If the Dems are voted back into power, then we deserve the hyper inflation & total economic collapse these morons will cause with their campaign to buy votes from the parasites. Center-Right wouldn't have signed ObamaCare.

Good topic!.... I didn't vote for either in 2008 and will NOT vote for him in 2012. Sorry guys, but this guy is a one termer and needs to go. Now there is talk of fing with my retirement. I am 19 years in and they are wanting to change the retirement system that I have been praying for for 19 years. The economy sucks ass and I am tired of not knowing my future. The only "change" I have are the pennies in my pocket.

Originally Posted by Team Infidel

Good topic!.... I didn't vote for either in 2008 and will NOT vote for him in 2012. Sorry guys, but this guy is a one termer and needs to go. Now there is talk of fing with my retirement. I am 19 years in and they are wanting to change the retirement system that I have been praying for for 19 years. The economy sucks ass and I am tired of not knowing my future. The only "change" I have are the pennies in my pocket.

In theory you should be grandfathered in, but your dealing with Govt, something Libs have confidence & faith in. for some reason. Unfortunatly there's never been a defence budget that Libs didn't want to gut.

Originally Posted by George

You got to be sheeting me! Mr I sought out Marxist professor & student groups & The private sector is the enemy is pro business???? Obviously once in Power Obama realized how screwed up his campaign promises were when the Community Organizer got to see the real world. The Reps off the deep end? A govt living with in its means, not borrowing 40% of what it is spending when the US Govt is the biggest debtor nation on the planet, with Libs still wanting to fund more welfare State BS? This is so pathetic. Just ignore the warnings & spend us into oblivion. Like I said before, the Libs are upset he isn't wrecking the Country faster. How dare the TEA Party shine a light on the debt disaster & wake up @ least some to the tidal wave decending on us, but business as usual in the mind of the Libs. Obama is Center-Right, now that is truly entertaining, hate to think of what drooling maniac would qualify as far left if Obama is center-Right. How many self-described Communists has he appointed? 3-4?
If the Dems are voted back into power, then we deserve the hyper inflation & total economic collapse these morons will cause with their campaign to buy votes from the parasites. Center-Right wouldn't have signed ObamaCare.

George

I mean no offense by this so please don't take it the wrong way. I am trying to be constructive not insulting.

But Its precisely these types of hysterical rants bordering delusion is exactly why I can no longer support the GOP. Its stupid, its childish, and its wrong. You want me to vote Republican? you are going show me why I should, meaning: what MY interest is. Just demonizing Obama and the left will not do it, quite the opposite actually. You are going to LOSE votes they way you are going, if Obama is reelected next year, you'll know why and you wont be able to blame him for it.

Liberals don't want to destroy America, anymore than the Tea Party does, That's simply partisan crap and I'm sick of it. Its extremists on both sides (but especially the right-wing as of late) that is to blame. And if you really want to point fingers on that I might recommend you take a look at certain Texas President whose record was far worse than Obama. The reason we are in this mess is because of a REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION. Obama did a crap job trying to fix it, Ill agree with you there. But its the GOPs fault for the mess we are now in.

The fact the GOP still hasn't assumed the responsibility for the Bush Administration which tells me that they not really that sorry about it. Which is another reason why they lose my vote. As much as I am unhappy with Obama if the GOP thinks I'm going to vote for a Bush II they are very sorely mistaken.

I have a serious ax to grind with Obama, but its based on fact on what Obama has done so far as president. Its posts like yours that are going get Obama re-elected, because Americans don't like crazy, either left or right-wing.

Sorry if that's too personal, but this partisan crap will destroy us, its already beginning to. The lose of our AAA+ credit rating was a direct result of partisans determined to destroy one another. And look what happened to the Stock Market as a result. 15% lose in 2 weeks. We keep that rythum up and we will have to start selling US states back to their original owners.

There are ALWAYS going to be liberals and there are ALWAYS going to be conservatives, we are just going to have to live with each other.


Padre

Hillary goes back and forth, but I honestly think that Obama is more to the right of her.

I must confess I am not conservative, so far right candidates are not really my thing. You ask me who I like for GOP 2016?. Chris Christie (Governor of NJ) and I also like Jon Huntsman (who is running this year but has zero chance) and I am a huge fan of Chuck Hagel (former senator from Nebraska). These are center-right Republicans.

If you were to hold my feet to the fire and force me to pick conservatives. I'd say McCain (whose too old now, smart man, means well, but like Obama doesn't have the personality to be a good president) and Mike Huckabee who I like many of his policies (but as a secularist I have a very serious problem mixing religion and politics). European history is filled with bloody ancedotes about why that is a bad idea.

And TI

I agree that he should be a 1 termer, but I am certain the GOP will make sure that he isn't. As I said the problem is that in 2012 there is simply no viable alternative. You really want a President Bachmann or Santorum? These people are nuts. Bachmann in particular is scary, some of her ultra-views are dangerous. They type of politics that sets off the crackpots like the shooter in Norway. If that's my choice Ill vote Obama.

In fairness to Obama, the shortchanging of our military personnel goes back to Bush I and every President since him (Bush, Clinton, Bush II, etc). Its not just Obama, sticking it to our service people is one thing both parties do quite well on.

You probably wont like this next part; but our defense budget is simply killing the economy. Granted, Its not the only thing. But the military adventures we have embarked on and these pork-barrel military projects like the Marines AAAV (a never to be used sitting duck) and the second engine for the F-35 (which even the Navy has said it doesn't want) are simply catastrophic. It has do with Big Business rather military necessity.

And yet politicians on BOTH sides always go after things that are important to the individual soldier (the VA, salaries, retirement benefits, etc) which is peanuts but never the fat of the DOD budget.

Lincoln said “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time”.
In 2008 Obama and his handlers fooled most of the people. They are still trying - the “big lie” lives on.

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." Win. Churchill

Originally Posted by mmarsh

George

I mean no offense by this so please don't take it the wrong way. I am trying to be constructive not insulting.

But Its precisely these types of hysterical rants bordering delusion is exactly why I can no longer support the GOP. Its stupid, its childish, and its wrong. You want me to vote Republican? you are going show me why I should, meaning: what MY interest is. Just demonizing Obama and the left will not do it, quite the opposite actually. You are going to LOSE votes they way you are going, if Obama is reelected next year, you'll know why and you wont be able to blame him for it.

Liberals don't want to destroy America, anymore than the Tea Party does, That's simply partisan crap and I'm sick of it. Its extremists on both sides (but especially the right-wing as of late) that is to blame. And if you really want to point fingers on that I might recommend you take a look at certain Texas President whose record was far worse than Obama. The reason we are in this mess is because of a REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION. Obama did a crap job trying to fix it, Ill agree with you there. But its the GOPs fault for the mess we are now in.

The fact the GOP still hasn't assumed the responsibility for the Bush Administration which tells me that they not really that sorry about it. Which is another reason why they lose my vote. As much as I am unhappy with Obama if the GOP thinks I'm going to vote for a Bush II they are very sorely mistaken.

I have a serious ax to grind with Obama, but its based on fact on what Obama has done so far as president. Its posts like yours that are going get Obama re-elected, because Americans don't like crazy, either left or right-wing.

Sorry if that's too personal, but this partisan crap will destroy us, its already beginning to. The lose of our AAA+ credit rating was a direct result of partisans determined to destroy one another. And look what happened to the Stock Market as a result. 15% lose in 2 weeks. We keep that rythum up and we will have to start selling US states back to their original owners.

There are ALWAYS going to be liberals and there are ALWAYS going to be conservatives, we are just going to have to live with each other.


Padre

Hillary goes back and forth, but I honestly think that Obama is more to the right of her.

I must confess I am not conservative, so far right candidates are not really my thing. You ask me who I like for GOP 2016?. Chris Christie (Governor of NJ) and I also like Jon Huntsman (who is running this year but has zero chance) and I am a huge fan of Chuck Hagel (former senator from Nebraska). These are center-right Republicans.

If you were to hold my feet to the fire and force me to pick conservatives. I'd say McCain (whose too old now, smart man, means well, but like Obama doesn't have the personality to be a good president) and Mike Huckabee who I like many of his policies (but as a secularist I have a very serious problem mixing religion and politics). European history is filled with bloody ancedotes about why that is a bad idea.

And TI

I agree that he should be a 1 termer, but I am certain the GOP will make sure that he isn't. As I said the problem is that in 2012 there is simply no viable alternative. You really want a President Bachmann or Santorum? These people are nuts. Bachmann in particular is scary, some of her ultra-views are dangerous. They type of politics that sets off the crackpots like the shooter in Norway. If that's my choice Ill vote Obama.

In fairness to Obama, the shortchanging of our military personnel goes back to Bush I and every President since him (Bush, Clinton, Bush II, etc). Its not just Obama, sticking it to our service people is one thing both parties do quite well on.

You probably wont like this next part; but our defense budget is simply killing the economy. Granted, Its not the only thing. But the military adventures we have embarked on and these pork-barrel military projects like the Marines AAAV (a never to be used sitting duck) and the second engine for the F-35 (which even the Navy has said it doesn't want) are simply catastrophic. It has do with Big Business rather military necessity.

And yet politicians on BOTH sides always go after things that are important to the individual soldier (the VA, salaries, retirement benefits, etc) which is peanuts but never the fat of the DOD budget.

I'd like to agree with Mmarsh on the Defence Budget comment. Whether or not we agree with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact is the USA has paid the bill for those wars. The USA, arguably, has done the world a favour fighting terrorism and over-throwing Saddam and the Taliban governments. The world benefits with the defeat of despots and terrorists, but China, Russia, etc are not sharing the sacrifice, the pain, the cost - mainly the USA and 2 trillion dollars has been sapped out of the US Treasury to fund just these two wars. As well intentioned as US policy is on anti-terrorism, the financial cost to the US economy is crippling. That said, I realise there are other factors such as democratic legislators wanting to spend public funds in excess of revenue.

One last point - Mmarsh, isn't Chris Christie ultra-right wing? Even Anne Coulter loves him. I'm surprised you could support him, and I agree he seems good (but not interested in running in 2012).