Russia, France locked in Mistral talks



by Staff Writers
Paris
(UPI) Sep 13, 2010
Russia says it is waiting for France to provide additional financial details before making a final decision on the purchase of helicopter carriers for its navy.

Talks between Paris and Moscow have been mired by disputes for months, with the Kremlin throwing open the contract to an international tender last month.

Still, recent statements made by senior Russian military officials Moscow have confirmed that France and Russia are in exclusive talks for the purchase of Mistral-class ships.

In a recent meeting with his French counterpart, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said negotiations were "proceeding intensively" and "include a number of technology transfers."

In separate remarks, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov told Moscow's ITAR-Tass news agency that the Kremlin was "expecting the detailed financial conditions" from France to push the deal to its final stages.

"We will examine them and then refer to experts, not just in Russia but also abroad," he added.

Serdyukov accompanied Lavrov during the Paris talks with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
Designed to attack the shore from the sea, the Mistral class is viewed as an ideal weapon for Russia against possible uprising by nearby countries.

Details of the deal remain sketchy, but Russian officials have suggested that the price tag for each vessel was estimated at around $380 million. French officials have also indicated that the building of the ships would be a "50-50 project."


The Mistral amphibious assault ship can carry 16 heavy or 35 light helicopters, dozens of tanks and more than 900 soldiers.

The deal has drawn concern from NATO allies apprehensive the transfer of Western naval technology to their former Cold War foe. Still, if clinched -- along with rights to construct several other vessels of the same class in Russia -- the deal would mark the most important transfer of military equipment to Russia by a NATO member country.


Moscow's announcement last month to hold an international tender follows heated complaints raised by Russian shipbuilders claiming that it would be illegal for Moscow to seal the deal with France without a previous tender.

Defense News reported that other competitors considered for the carriers include Russia's Zvezvda shipbuilder in the Far East which has a joint venture with South Korea's Daewoo Marine Shipbuilding and Engineering.

With its cutting edge technology, the Mistral is prided as the most powerful asset of the French fleet.


Russia owns only one Soviet-built aircraft carrier, which is much smaller than its U.S. counterparts and is considered outdated.

In all, Russia has expressed interest in buying four Mistral ships with the prospect also of eventually building such vessels on Russian soil.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Russia_France_locked_in_Mistral_talks_999.html

Well, before I moved to the Airborne Forces, I did a short stint in Morpekh, Russian Marines, for whom these ships are being purchased (and that is actually quite common, many people in Russian Airborne, many officers and contract soldiers, are former Marines), and I have to say, if the Morpekh has ships like these to serve as its floating bases, command centres, and rapid deployment vessels, it will be a force to reckon with, for sure. As one of the generals said, with Mistrals, what took us two days to accomplish in Georgia in 2008, we will be able to do in half an hour.

What do you guys think, in particular Shmack as a fellow Russian here?

French technology is pretty good, but the prices can be high...

Originally Posted by LeMask

French technology is pretty good, but the prices can be high...

Agreed. It's worth it though.

Well, obviously these ships were obtained for one general aim: regional wars with banana republics. It is very effective in conflicts like the one with Georgia, perfect weapon to set up a naval blockade and to surface significant assault force with air support at the same time. Also, it can be a very nice mobile command post.

I'm just worried about the possibility that it has to be maintained in a French wharf, that weaponary on board is French-made and ammunition is French-made. If Russia is going to stay current course in foreign politics, such dependence may cause undesirable consequences.

Originally Posted by Shmack

Well, obviously these ships were obtained for one general aim: regional wars with banana republics. It is very effective in conflicts like the one with Georgia, perfect weapon to set up a naval blockade and to surface significant assault force with air support at the same time. Also, it can be a very nice mobile command post.

I'm just worried about the possibility that it has to be maintained in a French wharf, that weaponary on board is French-made and ammunition is French-made. If Russia is going to stay current course in foreign politics, such dependence may cause undesirable consequences.

Under the deal, two Mistrals will be built in France and two more - in Russia. Which, I am guessing, means technology will also be transferred from France to Russia. Also, if French do not give us their weapons, I am pretty sure Russian weapons can be installed on them instead. I mean, for helicopters, any Mi-8, Black Shark, etc, is as good as any French choppers; and missiles or artillery guns are similar enough in design everywhere.

Originally Posted by Prapor

Under the deal, two Mistrals will be built in France and two more - in Russia. Which, I am guessing, means technology will also be transferred from France to Russia. Also, if French do not give us their weapons, I am pretty sure Russian weapons can be installed on them instead. I mean, for helicopters, any Mi-8, Balck Shark, etc, is as good as any French choppers; and missiles or artillery guns are similar enough in design everywhere.

Well, if so, i see no points against this deal then. Although it seems pretty unusual and in some way even tragic when Russia obtains such kind of weapon from abroad. Globalization, huh.

Well, it can be a good thing.

In the French have the skills to make these tools, then the Russian can focus on other things...

It would be wasteful to make everyone work on a "similar" technology... We win a lot by "sharing".

Originally Posted by LeMask

French technology is pretty good, but the prices can be high...

I disagree
French indigenous technology is highly questionable.

How dare you? En garde!!! We will duel to the death for this insult...

Well, I was told that France is a country of engineers. The technology is good. But the problem is that they dont always make the good choices...

Like the Rafale, nice aircraft, but way too expensive...

Current French technology is not contemporary. It was many years ago that France was leading. French cars are a technological nightmare. They fall short when compared to Japanese or German cars.

But led us examining the pinnacle of French technology, the most modern French aircraft carrier "Charles de Gaulle."


1) It took the French 11 years (e.g. over a decade) to build a 40,000 ton ship. In comparison, it only took the United States 7 years to build a ship 2 1/2 times bigger, the 100,000 ton Nimitz-class super carrier USS George H.W. Bush. To summarize, it takes the French four years longer to build a much smaller ship (e.g. 40,000 tons vs. 100,000 tons).

2) The French nuclear-powered carrier is "slower than the diesel powered carrier it replaced." Incredible French technology! Use nuclear power to build a slower ship.

3) "Flaws in the "de Gaulle" have led it to using the propellers from it predecessor, the "Foch," because the ones built for "de Gaulle" never worked right and the propeller manufacturer went out of business in 1999." Isn't that impressive French ingenuity? France can't build new propellers; why not take the old propellers and put it on the new ship?! What will French engineers think of next?

4) "Worse, the nuclear reactor installation was done poorly, exposing the engine crew to five times the allowable annual dose of radiation." If you want to be a guinea pig in a French science experiment, why not join the French Navy? You, too, can experience the privilege of being irradiated by "five times the allowable annual dose of radiation." Look, ma, French technology makes me glow in the dark from absorbing dangerous levels of radiation!

5) "There were also problems with the design of the deck, making it impossible to operate the E-2 radar aircraft that are essential to defending the ship and controlling offensive operations." That's right, French carriers don't need "E-2 radar aircraft...to defend the ship and control offensive operations." This is French engineering, where the deck is designed to "make it impossible to operate E-2 radar aircraft."

6) "The cause of the problems can be traced to the decision to install nuclear reactors designed for French submarines, instead of spending more money and designing reactors specifically for the carrier." What will the French think of next?! Why didn't anyone else think of installing "nuclear reactors designed for French submarines" and putting them on aircraft carriers instead?! Those French engineers can't be beat!

This is amazing French technology.