Real photos of Cuba

Dark_Mark said:
I do not support, endorse, or like the vast majority of the ideas of mao, stalin, or pol pot. I do not endorse the stalin's forced collectivization of agriculture, mao's so-called "great leap forward", and whatever-the-hell madness pol pot's policies were. I do, however, endorse the redistribution of land owned in excess by one person or one group of people. I do endorse the nationalization of natural resources and major corporations. Small private capital is no threat to socialism.
I suppose those that started communism had good intentions too. But they ended up being opne of the greatest evils in the 20th century. It is no coincidence the 3 of the 4 greatest mass murderers are all communist. So you can endeorse what ever you want, that is the kind of thinking that has led to evil like this. Pratcially everytime a communist sytem has taken over it has led to mass killing and massive suffering and oppresion whether those that were taking over thought they had good intentions or not.

Bottom line communism, and the ideas that brought it about is propably the greatest evil the world has seen to date.


THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS

This descrides the communism/socialism exactly.

That is exactly what the people who live under communism got---hell.


boris116 said:
In general, the communist theory does reqiure the ideal people to work with. Fortunately or unfortunately, but this breed can't be found on Earth. That's why the Communist theories can't be successful, period.
Exactly.

This is why communism has to always use mass killing, mass oppression, and secret police enforcement---always without exception, to get the people in line.

So regardless of the intentions at the beggining, this is what it will always end up in. That is why COMMUNISM IS PROBABLY THE GREATEST EVIL MANKIND HAS SEEN TO DATE.
 
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Dark_Mark said:
What right do you have to lord over someone else's means of production, especially when it required no acion by you to come into being? Why would you be entitled to a portion of the profit created by someone else's labor?

And if you're just not using part of your land, screw you.

If Mugabe didn't distribute the land in a fair, unbiased manner, than no, I don't advocate what he did.

Bu what right do you have to take away my property that I 've worked so hard for. As I said, if you ever try to take my property away from me. I'll shoot you where you stand. I can do what ever the hell I want with my land. IT'S MY LAND!!!!! No commie pinko snotball punk is going to tell me what I can and can't do with it.



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Why would I have the right to profit from someone elses labor. Because I hired them, I pay them, they use my tools, store front, bench, and products that I buy with MY MONEY. When I had my Gun Smithing business running, I have three folks working for me. They did different tasks in the shop. Cleaning, Grinding, Polishing, and such. They used my tools and shop to make a living. For every customer's gun they worked on. They got 10% commission of the wprok they did plus the hourly wage that I payed them.

So lets see here, they worked for five hours a day, got payed $10.00 an hour. So thats $50.00 right there. Plus if they worked on a 1911-A1 and put on Wilson Combat Sights. That's $75.00 for the sights themselves plus $100.00 for the labor. So in total that $175.00. Out of that, who ever did the work got 10% out of that $175.00. So he gets $17.50. So In one day he gets $67.50. And that is a slow day. Mostly my employees worked on at least four to five guns a day if it was simple stuff. I did all of the complicated work such as glass bedding a rifle with a free floating barrel and such.

Communism doesn't work. Tough shit, get an education and get a job you dirty commie pinko hippy scumbag.

Oh and before I forget, I had three signs hanging in my shop.

1. I have the right to refuse service to anyone
2. Forget the dog, beware of the owner
3. The beatings shall continue until morale improves

My store, before I sold it to my best friend.
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Dark_Mark said:
If Mugabe didn't distribute the land in a fair, unbiased manner, than no, I don't advocate what he did.

O, by the way...

Why don't you tell Fidel Castro to distribute the land on Cuba to the farmers?
Why does it belong to the state, not to the people who plow it?
 
Gladius said:
That is exactly what the people who live under communism got---hell.
Actually, living under communism can be quite cozy. Ask someone from East Germany, a lot of people there miss the good old DDR times. The socialist party (which is the direct succesor to the GDR/DDR state party) gets up to 30% there in certain regions. If you go to a pub somewhere in Saxonia, you'll certainly find some fellows to tell you how great everything was back in the days, how they had interesting jobs and were important and how their collective was awarded for their excellent work and so forth. And now everything is so cold, americanized and no one cares for the other.

Communism does offer something, it offers a low guaranteed living standard and security. If you feel you will not suceed in competition against others, you need directions in life and don't have much in terms of ambition or visions, then communism becomes appealing. Communism puts down the outstanding and promotes the mediocre. Its an ideology for people who are willing to let others think and decide for them. And for those who would like to think and decide for others.
 
loki said:
Actually, living under communism can be quite cozy. Ask someone from East Germany, a lot of people there miss the good old DDR times. The socialist party (which is the direct succesor to the GDR/DDR state party) gets up to 30% there in certain regions. If you go to a pub somewhere in Saxonia, you'll certainly find some fellows to tell you how great everything was back in the days, how they had interesting jobs and were important and how their collective was awarded for their excellent work and so forth. And now everything is so cold, americanized and no one cares for the other.
This is probably only about 5% of the population, those high in the communist party and hiarcy who led the good life (alot of whom could get illegal luxuries from the West), the rest lived a dreary existence, with little hope to make it better. Or else many wouldn't have tried to jump the wall. Those that lost the most complain the loudest, I don't feel sorry for those bastards.

As far as no one caring for the other... people who lived East Germany under commuinsm cared for each other alot, or else they wouldn't have reported each other to the Stasi.



Its an ideology for people who are willing to let others think and decide for them. And for those who would like to think and decide for others.
You're right here.
 
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Dark_Mark said:
That's where you're wrong. Socialism, which I am an advocate of, is the public (state) ownership of all large capital, where people are paid according to how hard they work, not according to what they own or who is below them on the corporate ladder. For example, a doctor would make more than a construction worker because he had to attend school for a longer period of time. However, this difference in payment would be nowhere near as wide as it is today, and any other difference would be based on how hard the two would work at their actual profession. Communism would be the state attained when such social perfection is reached that there is no longer a need for money, armies, or police. This may seem like it is impossible, but when you consider the social advances made over the past thousand years, it seems much more likely to happen!

We can tell things have softened by the shear drop in the number of human rights violations accusations and by the declining legitimacy of these accusations.

I just got home from work a few hours ago, and I happen to be somewhat irritable from pushing carts around all day on a human-sized grill (AKA: a parking lot). Your post just happened to enter my line of view. And unfortunately, I'm now fired up enough to make my disagreements with your beliefs known and butcher your argument into next Tuesday. Lucky you.

Admittedly on the outset, the goals that socialism has do indeed seem to be well-intentioned. Admirable to many, even. Being paid according to how hard one performs their job sounds good to the casual listener. So does a society that has reached social perfection, where currency, defense, and police are unnessacary to keep order. Yes, in fact, things would be rather peachy, indeed if all the above concepts were in effect.

Unfortunately, such a vision of the world only seems to be a conception that is produced when one has been living under a rock for a certain length of time in the dark, overdosed on a number of man-made chemical compounds such as marijuana and LSD, or simply utilizing a "la-di-da, tra-la-la" line of fantasizing over reality (i.e.: wishful thinking). socialist-communist philosophies are also, when put under the scrutiny of sound logical reasoning and common sense, comes across as very much half-baked, poorly thought out political philosophies and ideas.

To begin on as to why socialist-communist philosophies are not beneficial in the long run, let us first focus on the area of employee payment. It was earlier stated that socialism/communism is "where people are paid according to how hard they work, not according to what they own or who is below them on the corporate ladder. For example, a doctor would make more than a construction worker because he had to attend school for a longer period of time. However, this difference in payment would be nowhere near as wide as it is today, and any other difference would be based on how hard the two would work at their actual profession. " At face, this sounds fair and fine. However, upon closer examination, this statement is actually rife with many misconceptions and many a logical fau paux. If people are supposedly paid more according to how hard they work, then how can this be done when "hard work" is an intangibly (and therefore obviously immeasurable) concept that is subject to the many differing opinions of man. What may be "hard work" to one man may be "kid stuff" to the next, and as a result, one would still see generally widespread economic iniquities simply due to differing opinions amongst the ranks. It is simply far too ambiguous a concept to base one's paycheck on.

Second, one should consider that when a promotion is given, the recieving party is often expectant of an enlargement in their salary. Under socialist-communist policy, one is simply receiving a promotion to do something different. If one is not going to be paid more, even after working rear end off, then what's the point in the promotion? Or even having the job?

Third, it was stated that in a perfect communist state, there would be no need for money, armies, or police. How so? What if a gang of hooligans decides to launch an insurgency? Who’s going to protect civilians from having their lives and possessions taken. the local politicians and their supposedly almighty "peace treaty statement of death"? What if there was to be a major famine? Wouldn’t the people panic and fight amongst themselves over store-brought supplies? What if a totalitarian regime militarily invades this little perfect paradise from another world with intentions to murder or enslave every last citizen? Who’s going to stop them from rolling those people flat like cockroaches? Where would the order be without somebody to enforce the rules? And where has there ever been a time where human beings were perfect little angels, like such a belief implies?

Fourth, it was stated that "things have softened by the shear drop in the number of human rights violations accusations and by the declining legitimacy of these accusations." How can one be certain that such an opinion-ridden statement is a fact? How is it that one can trust the communist-socialist media reports and polls, when both are in fact entirely controlled by types of governments? How can one be certain that the claims are growing less frequent and veracious when this information is again controlled by these types of governments? How can one be sure that these state-owned news agencies and those that work for them are not simply putting on a dog-and-pony show for outsiders, and in effect, prevent the flow of true information from leaving these countries?

In closing, Dark_Mark, I must say that I find you views ranging from "complacent in ignorance" to "bordering on idiotic". I fail to see how you can support men who can say such awful things on the lines of "One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic."

Tell you what, buddy... If you think that things are so great in places like Cuba, then why not just SHUT UP and haul your yappy behind there, like 5.56 said. It is a nation that follows the philosophy you have been shown to cottle like a puppy, after all. His claims do more than support that; they prove it. I’m sure you would be in absolute bliss there. Otherwise, I’ve got one things to say to you:

Get real. The world is not the sort of distant, drug-induced utopia that you’ve got in mind. Appreciate what you have.

Oh, and 5.56? Nice shop. I would've bought one of those nice weapons there. ;)
 
Well spoken Pop-a-squat. I pushed carts for two Summers, I sure was glad to land the ball boy job at a driving range.
 
OK, pop-a-squat pretty much summed up exactly what we who are "opposing" Dark_Mark are all saying. Thanks. And well said.


On the other topic running here, I was fortunate enough to land my first job as a lifeguard. I will never leave it...till something better finds me.
 
gladius said:
This is probably only about 5% of the population, those high in the communist party and hiarcy who led the good life (alot of whom could get illegal luxuries from the West), the rest lived a dreary existence, with little hope to make it better. Or else many wouldn't have tried to jump the wall. Those that lost the most complain the loudest, I don't feel sorry for those bastards.

As far as no one caring for the other... people who lived East Germany under commuinsm cared for each other alot, or else they wouldn't have reported each other to the Stasi.




You're right here.

Glasius,

I would agree with Loki here.
To be honest, I do realize that no one from this side of the Iron Curtain could understand how the life is on the other side and vise versa.
In my 13 years in the States I have failed to find a book or a movie where I could get more or less realistic picture of the Soviet day-to-day life.
Even now, when this Curtain is, kind of, broken there is no real understanding between the two sides.
Just one example: Have you read the "Red Rabbit" by Tom Clancy?
I couldn't believe my eyes, when I was reading this book - so many obvious flaws that are just on the surface!. Like a KGB guy in Moscow decides to spend his vacation in Huingary. So he goes to their KGB's travel department to book a ticket. Simple like that, ha-ha!
Any Soviet citizen had to get a permission(an exit visa) to go abroad, and the cryptographer from the KGB would not be allowed to even think about it.

On the other hand, one needs to accept the thought - in the communist countries people do manage to find love, happiness, make honest careers, enjoy life - the same things we enjoy here.
The difference is - at what cost and what could make a person happy there vs. here?
The common joke in the USSR was - a foreign visitor has been asked about his impressions during his stay. He answers - I see that people are so happy here. I envy them - they just have no idea how deep in shit they are!

Humans are very flexible and inventive. They could go around many obstacles, survive in very difficult conditions. They could carve themselves a niche in very harsh environment and be relatively comfortable. So, if you don't have a point of reference, it could be seen as a very good life.

When my second child was born, we were in dire need for a washer machine. And I happened to be on a business trip via Moscow, when I was able to buy a portable washer and a portable centrifuge(to rinse the washed clothes).
So I carried those two machines by trains, planes and inter-city buses for two weeks, until I got home! And I was happy, because I could forget from now on about washing stuff by hand (there was no diapers known in the USSR then!).
And when I was leaving for the States 8 years later, the family of my friends where happy whan I gave these machines to them...
 
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I left a communist nation with nothing in my pocket. came to the USA for a chance to partake of the American Dream.

I got an education, served in the military with pride, opened my own business, and now I decided to sell it to a good friend to once again serve the community.

I've had some hard job. Being a Mall Security Guard, Handing out flyers for cell phone store, and working at an Eckerd Drugs. Which was the job that lead to my dream. I worked the Midnight shift. I stocked store selves, unloaded 18 Wheelers, helped customers find items at 2am and cleaned up the store. Also worked the cash register. It was just me and the night shift manager. It wasn't the hardest job in the world but I learned the vaule of working hard.

Unloading a Semi-Truck is hard work and stocking a store before 6am is also pretty hard when you have four hours to stock a large drug store.

While working there, I helped out a customer that happened to be a gun smith. We stared talking and he offered me a job as an apprentice. It is there that I discovered what I wanted to do. Open up my own gun smithing business and gun store. Well, I figured that I would someday do it.

After high school me and my friend enlisted in the Army. I served overseas in Afghanistan. From my whole time in service, I saved up cash to put myself through Gun Smithing School. I was lucky, the GI Bill payed for it because it's a public trade school. So with the money I saved in the Army. I applied for a FFL and bought a store.

From there, I started doing some gun smithing for local cops and other folks. Soon, I started selling used guns. Pretty soon, I got the idea to start selling new firearms too. So I became a dealer for GLOCK, Springfield Armory, Kimber, Bushmaster, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Khar, Heckler & Koch, Kel-Tec, Ruger, and Sig Sauer.

I started to make some good money, but I felt empty still. So I decided to become a cop. I sold my business to a good friend of mine and apllied to a couple of departments. I got picked up and put through the academy.

Which is where I am now.

That is part of the American Dream. Starting from scratch and living the good life. But you have the choice of what you want to do in life. I fyou want to live the good life, you got to work hard. But it pays off. And trust me it did. I would of never even been able to dream to do what i have done in Cuba. The United States of America gave me the dream and the chance to make it come true.

Owning a business is fun but at the same time it's hard work. I enjoyed my store and I'm glad that it's still doing good. My friend is the better business type anyways. Besides I still get everything at cost... :)

Communism can never provide a life like that. I still have another 60 years at least to live and who knows what I will do. But I know this. If I lived in Cuba again, I would never have been able to do wha I did. Maybe after being a Cop for twenty years I'll go back into business as a gun smith. Hell, maybe I could get tired of police work and go back to being a gun smith too. But I don't thnik that it would ever happen. Me getting tired of law enforcement. I loved serving in the Army, so I think I'll love serving as a Cop too.




PS - I would've given you a good deal on a S&W Model 642 .38 Special +P J-Frame Revolver. Holster, gun, case, and one HKS Speedloader all for $350.
 
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C/1Lt Henderson said:
OK, pop-a-squat pretty much summed up exactly what we who are "opposing" Dark_Mark are all saying. Thanks. And well said.


On the other topic running here, I was fortunate enough to land my first job as a lifeguard. I will never leave it...till something better finds me.
Getting payed to sit around in the sun by a pool or beach looking at hot women in skimpy bikinis. Must be nice.

Good job, keep it up, you might have to save someone.
 
boris116 said:
On the other hand, one needs to accept the thought - in the communist countries people do manage to find love, happiness, make honest careers, enjoy life - the same things we enjoy here.
The difference is - at what cost and what could make a person happy there vs. here?
The common joke in the USSR was - a foreign visitor has been asked about his impressions during his stay. He answers - I see that people are so happy here. I envy them - they just have no idea how deep in shit they are!

Humans are very flexible and inventive. They could go around many obstacles, survive in very difficult conditions. They could carve themselves a niche in very harsh environment and be relatively comfortable. So, if you don't have a point of reference, it could be seen as a very good life.

Yes I believe you are rigth here. I'm sure people will will make themsleve happy with whatever then can, that is the way things are. But like you said at what cost, and might I add on whose approval. Even in north Korea there are probably some happy people right now, taking whatever happiness they can get their hands on.

But as in all communist countries how many were mass murdered, how many were and have been continually oppresed in order to reach the status quo of the communist information and order to have gone unhindered. And how many more were being dealt this hand for it to have continued the way it did.
 
gladius said:
Even in north Korea there are probably some happy people right now, taking whatever happiness they can get their hands on.

But as in all communist countries how many were mass murdered, how many were and have been continually oppresed in order to reach the status quo of the communist information and order to have gone unhindered.
Its not like mass murder is an immanent part of communist rule. No mass murder has happened in the GDR that I know of, except maybe in the riots of the 17. June 1953. The opression there and in many other countries (Cuba) relies mainly on putting people with the wrong ideas to jail and excerting economic pressure on them and their families.

I agree very much with Boris post. Many people in America or elsewhere in the West seem to think because they earn ten times as much as some folks elsewhere their live or quality thereof must be ten times better. Sorry but that doesnt work out IMO. In the end, the daily live is often not that different. You get to work in the morning, come back to your appartment in the late afternoon, eat something, watch tv, then maybe spend time with your family or meet up with your friends for some beer and watching tv or playing football. Maybe thats not you but many people live like that, and most people in the GDR lived like that too. They had an apartment, they had a TV (though B/W and they had to wait for it a couple of years), they had a car (made from plastics, 50 mph max.) and enough to eat (no bananas though, and no tomatoes or any of that exotic stuff). The real differences are a) the quality of things (cars, TV, housing) which gets better due to competition, b) availability of products and c) most important: Freedom - thats the real difference. As in 5.56X interesting little biography, here you can do what you want to, go where you want and become what you want to be. In the GDR you were lucky if you could learn a trade you were somewhat interested in. And once you had learned it you would have to do it for the rest of your live. And to get along in daily live you had to show your allegiance to the regime by walking in parades every couple of weeks, waving, shouting stupid slogans and frenetically applauding some lousy speeches in the end. Most people reacted to that by becoming totally apolitical and focusing on their families, hobbies, their holidays at the baltic sea and so forth. And the government actually welcomed that.



BTW: My grandparents fled from the GDR to the west when my mother was 3 years old, we also had relatives who lived there so thats all from firsthand experience.


PS: Did nobody find that video I posted funny? :(
 
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loki said:
PS: Did nobody find that video I posted funny? :(

I've tried several times - no luck!

gladius said:
But as in all communist countries how many were mass murdered, how many were and have been continually oppresed in order to reach the status quo of the communist information and order to have gone unhindered. And how many more were being dealt this hand for it to have continued the way it did.

Mass murder cannot go forewer - it goes out of steam some day.
And oppression just takes a different form...
 
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I agree with you 100%. We should have a policy of forced relocation for those people to shock them into reality.


loki said:
Its not like mass murder is an immanent part of communist rule. No mass murder has happened in the GDR that I know of, except maybe in the riots of the 17. June 1953. The opression there and in many other countries (Cuba) relies mainly on putting people with the wrong ideas to jail and excerting economic pressure on them and their families.
You forget alot of those people end up being tortured and dying in jail, especially Stasi jails. For what, saying that their government isn't perfect, that in essense is hell, alot of the population just chose to ignore it and their deprived state and chose to make the best of it.

I agree very much with Boris post. Many people in America or elsewhere in the West seem to think because they earn ten times as much as some folks elsewhere their live or quality thereof must be ten times better. Sorry but that doesnt work out IMO. In the end, the daily live is often not that different.
Unless of course to secret police abducts you for some silly reason and you have no recourse whatsoever to do anything about it.

The bottom line with those communist countries, even though you may not think so, is that your pursuit of happiness is severely limited to going along with the party line.

At the end of the day they may do the same things. But there is a big difference in the quality of life, you're delusional, its absolute nonesense if you say there isn't. Like you illustrated on things alone there already is a big difference, and youre saying there isn't.

The fact that millions are going to the US & Western countries (legally and illegally) to get a better quality of life defeats your argument. Or else why even bother if everything is the same and quality of life was the same across the board, it isn't.


You get to work in the morning, come back to your appartment in the late afternoon, eat something, watch tv, then maybe spend time with your family or meet up with your friends for some beer and watching tv or playing football. Maybe thats not you but many people live like that, and most people in the GDR lived like that too. They had an apartment, they had a TV (though B/W and they had to wait for it a couple of years), they had a car (made from plastics, 50 mph max.) and enough to eat (no bananas though, and no tomatoes or any of that exotic stuff). The real differences are a) the quality of things (cars, TV, housing) which gets better due to competition, b) availability of products and c) most important: Freedom - thats the real difference.
It happens to be a big one.


boris116 said:
Mass murder cannot go forewer - it goes out of steam some day.
And oppression just takes a different form...
True. But to start a communist country it almost always happens. Why let it happen in the first place. Are you saying that mass murders were okay after the country gets going. Why do people have to go through this period or even live in fear of their own government. Yes, eventually things stabilize, and any promise of a workers paradise always falls short.

If life was not that much different between the USSR and in the US why did you even bother to move here? The fact that you moved here for whatever reason proves that there is a big difference, does it not.

Two weeks of luging washers and dryers in the USSR versus two hours of someone delivering them for you here in the USA, is two weeks that you could have spent with your family that you will never get back, which for most would be a big deal.
 
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phoenix80 said:
Send the leftists to Cuba if they hate the USA

So radical rightwing ideas like that (borderline fascist) are less dangerous than leftwing ideas? Accusations like this are quite commonly used to alienate people.

And for the record, I don't hate the USA, I love it!
 
Yes, eventually things stabilize, and any promise of a workers paradise always falls short.
yes, I ageed. just take a look at communist china which turn into the biggest factory of exploiting cheap labors.
 
gladius said:
You forget alot of those people end up being tortured and dying in jail, especially Stasi jails.
Hardly anyone was tortured to death in Stasi jails. People were routinely beaten, but otherwise torture relied on other strategies, especially isolation and humiliation. Like toilets that were visible from the corridor and similar niceness.

gladius said:
Unless of course to secret police abducts you for some silly reason and you have no recourse whatsoever to do anything about it.
The GDR was not North Korea. There was a (limited) rule of law. If you were known as a committed commie, something like that was very unlikely to happen.

gladius said:
The bottom line with those communist countries, even though you may not think so, is that your pursuit of happiness is severely limited to going along with the party line.
Thats actually exactly what I was saying. I just believe that for a lot of people these two are compatible. After all, many people in the west have a day job they don't like and pursue happiness in their private and family live.

gladius said:
At the end of the day they may do the same things. But there is a big difference in the quality of life, you're delusional, its absolute nonesense if you say there isn't. Like you illustrated on things alone there already is a big difference, and youre saying there isn't.
I said that freedom is the important difference. However if you're the kind of person that doesn't make use of his freedom to make something with his life, then freedom doesn't have much value for you and it becomes acceptable to exchange it for a bit of security. E.g. If other countries and cultures frighten you, freedom of travel won't have much value to you.

And I still insist: life can be good or bad, whether you live in Russia, the GDR or the USA. Once your basic needs are satisfied, how you feel mostly depends on the people around you. If you have good friends, a nice girl and some steaks on the grill, live is good whoever rules the country. If you have no friends, your big car will hardly cheer you up all the time. Why do think we need those tons of prozac and other prescribed happy pills in the west?

gladius said:
The fact that millions are going to the US & Western countries (legally and illegally) to get a better quality of life defeats your argument. Or else why even bother if everything is the same and quality of life was the same across the board, it isn't.
First of all, yes millions are going to the West. Yet billions are staying at home. Those that are adventurous, enterprising, amibitious come to the West to stay. The rest come to make money and go back afterwards. Just take mexicans coming to the US. How many are actually searching for a better life by becoming americans and how many want to make money to live more comfortably back in Mexico? The latter is more common I think. Because living as an american worker is not all and totally different from living as a mexican worker. Yet earning like an american and then moving back to Mexico as a rich man is very appealing.


Anyway, I'm not defending communism here. I'm just pointing out the reasons why its appealing to certain people. You're saying communism is hell but in East Germany you would be faced with a large percentage of people who have been "liberated" from it telling you live for them was better under communism. Its like that in other countries too, in Russia the communist party got over 30% at the Duma elections the last time I checked.
 
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