re-accessing WW2

[I3BrigPvSk]

This is exactly my point though, you can not chastise someone for not having access to information when that information is not publicly available.

Outside of that I disagree with you, through my job I am given access to various archives and academic journals (subscription based sites) and I use those often when I post here and will post sections from those sites.

If I can not post the whole document I generally will at a minimum search the internet for a copy of the document and link it or give the full name of the paper and its authors to ensure people can look it up.

So you have access to historical journals and archives? Why does an engineer have that? You don't have the credentials for it. Try to go to an archive and try to get access only because you think its fun, you don't get access to it.

Check how expensive the IHS Jane is for a private person. I have access to it in my job, but I never do anything private there.

 

[JOC]

This is exactly my point though, you can not chastise someone for not having access to information when that information is not publicly available.

Outside of that I disagree with you, through my job I am given access to various archives and academic journals (subscription based sites) and I use those often when I post here and will post sections from those sites.

If I can not post the whole document I generally will at a minimum search the internet for a copy of the document and link it or give the full name of the paper and its authors to ensure people can look it up.

1st and foremost if (the Canadian) and you base your so called evidence or "lack of evidence" on a the writing of a few revisionist your a pretty sorry lot.

You play with the truth which is supported by valid historians as if it were some kind of game and not the greatest tragedy in human history. I'm sick of playing the numbers games. I've already provided the stats and sources to back this up, yea the Nazi's were history's most prolific murderers.

Yes the largest gas chambers were disabled in the eastern death camps as the Nazi's retreated west. As 13 mentioned the Nazi's were stupid enough to leave a paper trail as well as some physical evidence.

If one wants to pursue these paper trails to the nth degree then let him become involved in the humanity's and get a degree.

 

[MontyB]

So you have access to historical journals and archives? Why does an engineer have that? You don't have the credentials for it. Try to go to an archive and try to get access only because you think its fun, you don't get access to it.

Check how expensive the IHS Jane is for a private person. I have access to it in my job, but I never do anything private there.

So it is your contention that gas chambers and concentration camps were not planned and built by engineers, what about Zyklon B do you possibly think chemical engineers may have played a part in that, how about medical experimentation not science related?

Here is a clue most of the sites I deal with carry papers on all subjects relating to the engineering and science fields and those papers are not solely from the last 5 years.

Further to that if you believe that the only source of this data is your super secret sites you are dead wrong as there are very few documents that are not in the public domain especially historic ones.

1st and foremost if (the Canadian) and you base your so called evidence or "lack of evidence" on a the writing of a few revisionist your a pretty sorry lot.

You play with the truth which is supported by valid historians as if it were some kind of game and not the greatest tragedy in human history. I'm sick of playing the numbers games. I've already provided the stats and sources to back this up, yea the Nazi's were history's most prolific murderers.

Yes the largest gas chambers were disabled in the eastern death camps as the Nazi's retreated west. As 13 mentioned the Nazi's were stupid enough to leave a paper trail as well as some physical evidence.

If one wants to pursue these paper trails to the nth degree then let him become involved in the humanity's and get a degree.

So you say we should take what "valid" historians say at face value?

Lets look at that shall we, Antony Beevor is a "valid" historian and has written on the Eastern Front quite extensively he says 13,000 Red Army soldiers executed by their own side during the battle of Stalingrad yet Red Army documents put the number at fewer than 300.
Who should we believe, should we even question such a "valid" historian?

What pisses me off with people such as yourself is the inability to think outside the box and evaluate things from different angles you are the classic "I know what I am talking about as I saw it on the History channel and read it on Wikipedia" type.

I am not saying Beevor is wrong and I am not saying the Russians are wrong I am saying there is room for further examination and I am saying that about Papasha408 as well, if for no other reason than human interest and to educate ourselves (or even reinforce what we already knew) we should question everything.

I am just happy periods of human history have managed to break the dogma you guys reinforce because if we hadnt we would still be executing people for saying the earth wasnt the centre of the universe.

 

[JOC]

So you say we should take what "valid" historians say at face value?

What pisses me off with people such as yourself is the inability to think outside the box and evaluate things from different angles you are the classic "I know what I am talking about as I saw it on the History channel and read it on Wikipedia" type.
.

Lets look at the flip side what are invalid historians? Ones who purposely diminish or deflect the main source of WW2 crimes and horrors of the Nazi's. Ones who have an agenda like Neo-Nazism, the Aryan Brotherhood, KKK, Germans for Germany or likewise sympathizers. If you do you will see they deny - diminish the Holocaust and other Nazi war crimes as well as pump up charges against the allies.

No my sources are not the History Channel and I may use Wike on rare occasion, but for the most part I use studied historians: books, lectures and writing. Gut wrenching footage like the "Original Nazi Concentration Camp Uncensored” Videos is as close to the truth as you'll ever get on a topic like this. Taken add hock on the spot.

Also the Stalingrad example is ineffective for this tread. In addition Soviet records only stated to become clear with the fall of the iron Curtain and Gorbachev's leadership.

 

[MontyB]

Lets look at the flip side what are invalid historians? Ones who purposely diminish or deflect the main source of WW2 crimes and horrors of the Nazi's. Ones who have an agenda like Neo-Nazism, the Aryan Brotherhood, KKK, Germans for Germany or likewise sympathizers. If you do you will see they deny - diminish the Holocaust and other Nazi war crimes as well as pump up charges against the allies.

Why are they invalid?
If you are looking to understand the causes and mindsets involved in the holocaust then they are the perfect places to start and I am not sure I have a problem with people diminishing or denying the holocaust as long as they have sound reasoning for doing it.

I personally believe the "standard" story from numbers to gas chambers but there is no reason why I wouldn't at least listen to counter arguments that are well thought out as if nothing else it strengthens and encourages me to assess my own views and reinforce my facts and figures.

I have never once said you have to change your views on a subject but I am opposed to the outright dismissal of discenting viewpoints on the grounds that it "isnt conventional thinking".

No my sources are not the History Channel and I may use Wike on rare occasion, but for the most part I use studied historians: books, lectures and writing. Gut wrenching footage like the "Original Nazi Concentration Camp Uncensored” Videos is as close to the truth as you'll ever get on a topic like this. Taken add hock on the spot.

So you believe in the stories of allied tank busters skiping bullets into the underbelly of Tigers and knocking them out (which raises the questions how much energy is lost in "skipping a bullet" from a few hundred feet of altitude and were the Germans building Tiger underbellies out of baked bean tins by 1944), the heroic fables of allied aircraft destroying swathes of German tanks in Normandy even in the face of current evidence that says it never happened and most German armour was in fact knocked out by artillery and aircraft claimed more armour destroyed than the Germans had in France, there are after all on the spot videos of all this happening.

Also the Stalingrad example is ineffective for this tread. In addition Soviet records only stated to become clear with the fall of the iron Curtain and Gorbachev's leadership.

Beevors book was researched and writen well after the collapse of the Soviet Union he just used faulty math and conventional logic both of which failed him. But if you are going to start on about "valid" historians and he is one that has proven to have been mistaken.

 

[JOC]

Why are they invalid?
If you are looking to understand the causes and mindsets involved in the holocaust then they are the perfect places to start and I am not sure I have a problem with people diminishing or denying the holocaust as long as they have sound reasoning for doing it..

People that deny the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes have an agenda. Research revisionist.

So you believe in the stories of allied tank busters skiping bullets into the underbelly of Tigers and knocking them out (which raises the questions how much energy is lost in "skipping a bullet" from a few hundred feet of altitude and were the Germans building Tiger underbellies out of baked bean tins by 1944), the heroic fables of allied aircraft destroying swathes of German tanks in Normandy even in the face of current evidence that says it never happened and most German armour was in fact knocked out by artillery and aircraft claimed more armour destroyed than the Germans had in France, there are after all on the spot videos of all this happening

What? I know nothing about this, nor does it apply to the tread. BTW at no time were there more than 140 tigers in all of Normandy (including both Tigers 1 and 2), so how many tigers constitutes a swath?

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

So it is your contention that gas chambers and concentration camps were not planned and built by engineers, what about Zyklon B do you possibly think chemical engineers may have played a part in that, how about medical experimentation not science related?

Here is a clue most of the sites I deal with carry papers on all subjects relating to the engineering and science fields and those papers are not solely from the last 5 years.

Further to that if you believe that the only source of this data is your super secret sites you are dead wrong as there are very few documents that are not in the public domain especially historic ones.



So you say we should take what "valid" historians say at face value?

Lets look at that shall we, Antony Beevor is a "valid" historian and has written on the Eastern Front quite extensively he says 13,000 Red Army soldiers executed by their own side during the battle of Stalingrad yet Red Army documents put the number at fewer than 300.
Who should we believe, should we even question such a "valid" historian?

What pisses me off with people such as yourself is the inability to think outside the box and evaluate things from different angles you are the classic "I know what I am talking about as I saw it on the History channel and read it on Wikipedia" type.

I am not saying Beevor is wrong and I am not saying the Russians are wrong I am saying there is room for further examination and I am saying that about Papasha408 as well, if for no other reason than human interest and to educate ourselves (or even reinforce what we already knew) we should question everything.

I am just happy periods of human history have managed to break the dogma you guys reinforce because if we hadnt we would still be executing people for saying the earth wasnt the centre of the universe.

You have never been to an archive, and if you try they don't let you in. They are afraid of getting their documents stolen or destroyed. They aren't secret, they exist, but you must have the credentials straight get in. When you arrive to an archive they will ask you why you want to get the information, when you have convinced the staff about your intention, they will let you in, but you cannot go and pick up the documents by yourself, they do it for you. If you want copies, the staff do it for you. When you are done, the staff will check if something is missing.

In addition to all this. I had access once, but I don't have it any longer. Why would I have access to some archives when I don't need it. I remember what I read and saw when I had access.

 

[MontyB]

You have never been to an archive, and if you try they don't let you in. They are afraid of getting their documents stolen or destroyed. They aren't secret, they exist, but you must have the credentials straight get in. When you arrive to an archive they will ask you why you want to get the information, when you have convinced the staff about your intention, they will let you in, but you cannot go and pick up the documents by yourself, they do it for you. If you want copies, the staff do it for you. When you are done, the staff will check if something is missing.

In addition to all this. I had access once, but I don't have it any longer. Why would I have access to some archives when I don't need it. I remember what I read and saw when I had access.

Well if in your opinion it is that difficult dont you think it is a bit pretentious to criticise the guy for not having access to it?

 

[JOC]

Well if in your opinion it is that difficult dont you think it is a bit pretentious to criticise the guy for not having access to it?

All he telling you is that particular paper trail as left by the Nazi's in Bad Arolsen requires academic privileges. The Canadian and or you can pursue this route if so desired, when you obtain the credentials. I have supplied you with proofs which you fail to accept or take serously. I am not about to write a thesis in order to satisfy your curiosities. How much evidence do you have to back up your revisionist theories? Are you familiar with the groups that back up the revisionist theories? What about all the other revisionist claims made by the Canadian? Are you willing to champion these as well?

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Well if in your opinion it is that difficult dont you think it is a bit pretentious to criticise the guy for not having access to it?

No, not really. If you know what he's saying is wrong and you know where the information is, you can say it. If people don't have access to it isn't my problem. Get access and the problem is solved.

 

[MontyB]

mmm to reuse that old saying... "what ever"

Onwards this seemed interestingly appropriate.

Poland may sue over claim Poles killed more Jews than Germans during war

Princeton University professor Jan T Gross faces possible lawsuit by the Polish prosecutors over his remarks

Polish prosecutors on Thursday opened a libel probe against a US historian after he claimed Poles killed more Jews than Germans during the second world war.

Last month, German newspaper Die Welt ran an article by the Polish-born Princeton University professor Jan T Gross in which he sought to explain Poland’s wariness of accepting Syrian migrants streaming into Europe by referring to anti-Semitism during the war.
“The Poles, for example, were indeed rightfully proud of their society’s resistance against the Nazis, but in fact did kill more Jews than Germans during the war,” wrote the 68-year-old Jewish historian.

The Warsaw prosecutor’s office has since received more than 100 complaints from individuals and organisations saying they found Gross’s claim offensive, according to office spokesman Przemyslaw Nowak.
Nowak told public television that the office was acting under a paragraph of the criminal code that “provides that any person who publicly insults the Polish nation is punishable by up to three years in prison”.
Foreign ministry spokesman Marcin Wojciechowski said last month that Gross’s article was “historically untrue, harmful and insulting to Poland”.
Warsaw historian Andrzej Paczkowski told AFP “there are no reliable figures regarding the number of Jews killed by Poles and the number of Germans killed by Poles.”
But Paczkowski, who is also a council member of the National Remembrance Institute (IPN) that is charged with investigating Nazi and Communist-era crimes, said he “would not be totally surprised if Gross were right”.
“But his vision of things runs counter to the heroic image Poles have of themselves.”
Advertisement

Gross is well known in Poland, where he caused shock in 2001 with his book “Neighbours” in which he revealed that in 1941 during the Nazi German occupation, several hundred Jews were massacred by their Polish neighbours in the town of Jedwabne.
Between 340 and 1,500 Jews died during the massacre, according to historians.
IPN concluded in 2003 that the killings were indeed committed by Polish villagers at the instigation of German Nazis.
“Neighbours” drove then Polish president Aleksander Kwasniewski to apologise to Jews worldwide for the crime. It provoked unprecedented soul-searching about the complex relationship between ethnic Poles and Jews before, during and after the war, in overwhelmingly Catholic Poland.
Prosecutors had twice already looked into whether Gross defamed Poland in his earlier books “Fear” and “Golden Harvest”.
But those preliminary investigations in 2008 and 2011 were shelved after prosecutors found no evidence of a crime.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...oles-killed-more-jews-than-germans-during-war

 

[JOC]

mmm to reuse that old saying... "what ever"

Onwards this seemed interestingly appropriate.

Poland may sue over claim Poles killed more Jews than Germans during war

Princeton University professor Jan T Gross faces possible lawsuit by the Polish prosecutors over his remarks

Polish prosecutors on Thursday opened a libel probe against a US historian after he claimed Poles killed more Jews than Germans during the second world war.

Last month, German newspaper Die Welt ran an article by the Polish-born Princeton University professor Jan T Gross in which he sought to explain Poland’s wariness of accepting Syrian migrants streaming into Europe by referring to anti-Semitism during the war.
“The Poles, for example, were indeed rightfully proud of their society’s resistance against the Nazis, but in fact did kill more Jews than Germans during the war,” wrote the 68-year-old Jewish historian.

The Warsaw prosecutor’s office has since received more than 100 complaints from individuals and organisations saying they found Gross’s claim offensive, according to office spokesman Przemyslaw Nowak.
Nowak told public television that the office was acting under a paragraph of the criminal code that “provides that any person who publicly insults the Polish nation is punishable by up to three years in prison”.
Foreign ministry spokesman Marcin Wojciechowski said last month that Gross’s article was “historically untrue, harmful and insulting to Poland”.
Warsaw historian Andrzej Paczkowski told AFP “there are no reliable figures regarding the number of Jews killed by Poles and the number of Germans killed by Poles.”
But Paczkowski, who is also a council member of the National Remembrance Institute (IPN) that is charged with investigating Nazi and Communist-era crimes, said he “would not be totally surprised if Gross were right”.
“But his vision of things runs counter to the heroic image Poles have of themselves.”
Advertisement

Gross is well known in Poland, where he caused shock in 2001 with his book “Neighbours” in which he revealed that in 1941 during the Nazi German occupation, several hundred Jews were massacred by their Polish neighbours in the town of Jedwabne.
Between 340 and 1,500 Jews died during the massacre, according to historians.
IPN concluded in 2003 that the killings were indeed committed by Polish villagers at the instigation of German Nazis.
“Neighbours” drove then Polish president Aleksander Kwasniewski to apologise to Jews worldwide for the crime. It provoked unprecedented soul-searching about the complex relationship between ethnic Poles and Jews before, during and after the war, in overwhelmingly Catholic Poland.
Prosecutors had twice already looked into whether Gross defamed Poland in his earlier books “Fear” and “Golden Harvest”.
But those preliminary investigations in 2008 and 2011 were shelved after prosecutors found no evidence of a crime.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...oles-killed-more-jews-than-germans-during-war

Even if this example were true and upwards to 1,500 Jews died during a massacre in Poland at the hands of Poles during a local anti-Jewish pogrom. What has this got to do with the 3 million Polish Jews that were murdered by then Nazi’s in the final solution? The Nazi’s despised Slav’s and eventually planned to rid Europe of them. However in the short term they used them in the implementation of the final solution. Poles, Balts and Ukrainians were given special treatment if they enlisted with the SS: as camp guards or assisting Einsatzgruppen. Also anti –Jewish sentiments existed in some Nazi occupied countries, so local pogroms were encouraged. Basically allowing the locals to do some of the Nazi’s dirty work for them. However bear in mind these were not a main cause of death as that occurred in the eastern death camps.
http://remember.org/forgotten