Probably Posted Before But Worth Remembering.

Missileer

Missileer

Active member
This is in line with two things, April 25th, Holocaust Remembrance Day and May 29th, Memorial Day Observance.

Do you know how many Russians died in WWII? 6 million represents roughly 25% of the Russians killed in WWII. How about how many Allied soldiers and civilians. Even how many Germans or Japanese? How about how many Chinese? It was a bad time no doubt in Mankind’s history.

Question is; Why do we almost automatically know 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust and never hear one word about the war death count of:

Americans 420,000
British 450,000
Italy 460,000
France 560,000
Romania 800,000 of which roughly 50% were Jewish
French Indo-China 1,000,000
Yugoslavia 1,000,000
India 1,500,000
Japan 2,600,000
Indonesia4,000,000
Poland 2,600,000 non Jewish + 3,000,000 Jews = 5,600,000
Germany 7,500,000 of which 160,000 were Jewish
China 10,000,000
Soviet Union 22,000,000 non Jewish + 1,000,000 Jews = 23,000,000

Total war deaths = 62,000,000 of which 19% were Axis deaths and 81% were Allied deaths (civilians + military)

Total military war deaths = roughly 21,000,000 plus excluding Holocaust victims
Total civilian war deaths = roughly 31,000,000 plus excluding Holocaust victims
Total Holocaust war deaths = roughly slightly less than 6,000,000

The war was not just about the Holocaust but many other additional issues brought to play by both sides not just the Axis. In honoring those who died in the Holocaust, we shouldn’t forget any of those additional “Lessons Learned” from this war.

One of those Lessons Learned should be to look beyond what our Press and Government feeds us over the media for the BIG PICTURE. If the Germans had done this, we wouldn’t even know who Hitler was today.

 
Agreed, agreed, agreed.
These figures are unbelievable. Sounds obvious, bout I hope soooo hard that something like that will NEVER happen again. 62 million people died in 5 years.
 
:salute2: Same here, Never again,
Was surprised at how many Indonesians. Dont mean any disrespect but their suffering is never portrayed to a relevent scale in film or book to show just how huge the loss incurred was.
 
there are two seperate issues. the Holocaust was not a part of war. it was a well orgenized mass murder of an entire people. simply because they were jews. not because they were in the way. not as a battle plan. not because some local commander decided to "cut the natives down to size".....this wes the worst and most awsome jenocide ever. V-day is the day to remember the dead of WWII. I have much respect for these men and women. My grandfather is a veteran of the british army. he faught in malta, el-almein and tobruk. my granmother is a sorvivor of auswitz. their expriences cannot be put in the same frame.
 
I'm almost certain that it isn't your intent to do so, but it sounds as if you are downplaying the Holocaust. I realize 60 (or 80 by some estimates) million died and only 6 million were Jews. As Sherman said, though, the circumstances were completely different between military-related and Holocaust-related deaths. Dresden, for instance, arguably targeted civilians. That said, it didn't target a specific race of people for extermination. Perhaps it's rationalization. Perhaps it splitting hairs. You tell me.
 
Indeed, it seems like the other deaths of WWII and of other wars are forgotten compared to the Holocaust, but there is a reason.

As Sherman said, the Holocaust was different from war. War is a terrible thing because of the death and carnage it incurrs, but the Holocaust was arguably worse. Although deaths in war were senseless and often unneccessary, the Holocaust was a scientifically planned, systematic attempt to completely liquidate an entire race of people. The fact that the Nazis coldly planned the murder of the Jews is what makes the Holocaust stand out.
 
The question I ask about the Soviet Union's deaths is how many of those people were killed by the order of Stalin himself? His purges never stopped, they continued though the war and until his death, he even sent Russian POW's (Meaning Russians who had been captured by the Germans and liberated by Soviet forces) straight from their POW camps in Germany to Gulags in Siberia. The first pogroms against the Jews took place in Russia, not Germany, Stalin even tried to continue the work that Hitler started. Stalin, not Hitler, was the greater of the two evils here but through either fate or dumb luck Stalin ended up on the Allies side during the war and because of that he has been listed as one of the "good guys" in WWII. Thankfully everyday his reputation gets lower and lower until someday everybody will see that Stalin and Hitler were the same man, Stalin just fought somewhat alongside us for a few years until Hitler was out of the picture.

But, the Holocaust really is a seperate issue from the casualties of war, these were not people who were accidently killed while trying to bomb a factory or were caught up in street fighting, these people were taken from their homes, all their possessions were siezed and they went through horrors that I will never get out of my mind (Thank god for public education) because images like that just can not be unforgotten. Sadly the message of the Holocaust seems to have been lost on us today, the UN is sitting back while the poorest people of the world continue to kill each other and the five permanent members of the security council are the ones providing the poorest of poor with the means to continue killing each other.
 
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I don't know if the lessons of the Holocaust will truly be forgotten. But the details and the total lack of humanity is so hard to comprehend. How do you explain to a kid that 60 years ago people were mass exterminated, because they were a certain race! If you can't comprehend or relate to it, it is easy to treat it lightly....

And the sheer numbers of military and civvy deaths are staggering, but you can rationalize this with the total war that was raging. Tens of thousands died in Dresden, most quite innocent, but they were victims of a war. The Jews suffered their fate, just because they were Jews! Not some bomb or random bullet fired, but premeditated, well planned, cold murder of a certain group regardless of their nationality...
 
moving0target said:
I'm almost certain that it isn't your intent to do so, but it sounds as if you are downplaying the Holocaust.
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You're wrong, in fact, remembering the victims of the Holocaust was the intent of this post. This was the picture that was with the message. I just didn't want to cross any lines but I think it is appropriate. And yep, you're splitting hairs. Blow these up real big and observe how your fellow man treats anyone they disagree with.

IN MEMORIAM


These Pictures MUST NOT be Erased!



Holocaust.jpg
 
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Re-read this and this time, think about what you're reading.

Now tell me if this is in any way downplaying the Holocaust. In fact you who said that the Holocaust and WWII should be represnted in two different contexts, read the first sentence and tell me that this is not what is being said.


"The war was not just about the Holocaust but many other additional issues brought to play by both sides not just the Axis. In honoring those who died in the Holocaust, we shouldn’t forget any of those additional “Lessons Learned” from this war.

One of those Lessons Learned should be to look beyond what our Press and Government feeds us over the media for the BIG PICTURE. If the Germans had done this, we wouldn’t even know who Hitler was today."

 
Italian Guy said:
Oh come on, where was Missileer downplaying the Shoah. Please let's stop this.
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IG, did you have a course in College called "Reading and Expository Writing?" It may have had a different title at your University but it is about reading a book, article, story, whatever the Prof. assigns, then you write about what you understood the writer was trying to convey to an audience. While we had a little leeway, not everyone thinks alike, we had to all be able to explain what the main subject matter was. I guess that course isn't taught anymore.
 

One of those Lessons Learned should be to look beyond what our Press and Government feeds us over the media for the BIG PICTURE. If the Germans had done this, we wouldn’t even know who Hitler was today.
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I disagree, anti-semitism was rampant in Europe at this time, Hitler merely played on these feelings and used that as his launching board for further success, the average German probably did know what was going on but they didn't lose much sleep over it, after all, the Jews weren't people like them, right? Also keep in mind that Germany was desperate to avenge its loss to the allies 20 years earlier.
 
I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I certainly didn't attack anyone's level of education or their intelligence. I merely presented a potential alternate interpretation of the post. Pray, pardon the intrusion.
 
I never said Missileer disrepected anything....Simply wanted to make a point about these being seperate things. Missileer certinly isent the type to downplay genocide....
 
This has probably been steered way off track. My post was an email I received from a friend in Wisconsin who is Jewish and sends me articles like this quite often. She is a Messianic Jew.
 
Interesting, so is your friend an activist Jew? I mean does he get involved in communal activities and the like? You probably remember what my doctoral thesis was about.
 
Not what I'd call an activist. Have you done any studies on the Messianic Jews, I'm still not sure I understand how they believe except they believe Jesus was the Messiah and we're living in the last days.
 
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