Pope attacked about theological speech.

T

Ted

Active member
Some of you know me as a (somewhat) liberal who always appeases our Islamic counterparts. During the cartoon scandal this lessened but they really done it now!
As I opened my morning paper I saw a picture of angry muslims in the streets of Karachi (Capital of Pakistan, for those who.....) They are madder then hell because Pope Bendictus XVI used a quote from a Byzantine Empreror from the fourteenth century.
So here I am getting all worked up because muslims all around the world demand an excuse from the pope, because he quoted Manuell II Palaeolus in a theological lecture at the university of Regensburg. The quote said that Mohammad ordered the islam to be spread by the sword.

So here is my question to you: What do the muslims expect? Do they seriously expect the pope to apologize for using a quote, which isn´t so untrue after all? Do they expect us to self censor ourself in debates in our own countries? I they don´t like what they see on our Satanic television, why don´t they turn them off? In short I am fed up which people who are wrapped so tight they crap diamonds and what to impose there values and believe to people on other continents..... What is your opinion on this?
 
I dont care what they expect. If they are being pissy about a true statement, then they can go crap diamonds in their world. I think they, in secret, really do envy us and are only jealous. Then again, the statement is only partially true. The Quran states that peaceful imposition should be implemented first, and if that does not make believers, then force them. The base argument is still the same, we do not allow religion to be forced upon others, therefore, they are our enemies.
 
It's sort of a Salman Rushdie story on steroids. The goals of Islam have been read and re-read, iterated and reiterated to the rest of the world since it's inception. It's written and preached all over the world for those who are interested in their ultimate fate. The Pope, Dali Llama, Billy Graham, Buddha, or whoever, mean nothing to the imams who reach the masses of muslims across the earth. The one and only message is that only islam can survive as the way of life intended by Mohammad, it's conversion or death.
 
C/1Lt Henderson said:
I The Quran states that peaceful imposition should be implemented first, and if that does not make believers, then force them.
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That is true, but it was a quote by an ancient emperor who´s empire was about to crumble and lost to the Ottomans. So Benedictus is just quoting and this isn´t his own opinion, although that won´t be too far off I imagine.

But what bothers me is that people have access to information from across the globe and start condemning other nations to their standards. Why can´t they just accept that there about 4,5 billion other people on this globe with othre convictions and believes.... If they get so :cens: off by this speech, don´t bloody listen to it!! How simple can it get?
 
You guys have to remember that this was the pope who said it. You know, god's representitive on earth, the vicar of christ. It's like a head of state of an important country saying that islam is inherently violent, whether you agree with him or not you're bound to upset many people with that comment. The pope technically is the head of state for the vatican, can you imagine tony blair or GW making a similar quote and wondering why people became upset afterwards. I think he messed up since he said the quote but didn't state if he agreed with it. He also criticized the christian nations, but you have to be careful what you say about another people's religion when you're the pope and you represent a billion catholics.
 
Guess what, it shows their true colors. It's a battle to the death Western Society or Islamofascism.
 
You sound like Bush or Cheney, i don't think you want to go down that route, it usually goes to a dead end.

The pope recently apologized for his comments which i suppose would be okay but some people and organizations say it doesn't count and that's just stupid. If they wanted an apology they have one, but i don't know how much more they can expect from someone. Maybe they want a more thorough statement, i don't know.
 
Now of course the Crusades were gentle things and there was no untold violence about was there, or was there. In my opinion it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black
 
LeEnfield said:
Now of course the Crusades were gentle things and there was no untold violence about was there, or was there. In my opinion it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black
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But was there wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians used as a terrorism tactic in the Holy Lands?
 
The thing that bugs me is that the pope was only quoting a 12th Holy-Roman Emporer. But people in the Middle East are just so sensetive and so uneducated that they take any criticism as a personal attack.

And lets face it, the Christians tried to convert Muslims by the sword during the crusades that is true, as a Christian I not going to rewrite history be refuting historical fact. But its also a historical fact that Muslim armies also conquered Christian lands (and other faiths) by force as well. For example, The Moors invaded from North Africa and conquered most of Spain before French Kings Charles Martel, Charlesmagne, and 'El Cid' of Spain were the people most responisable of throwing the Moors out of Europe.

The muslim armies also pushed eastward into now Pakistan but were defeated by the Mongols and later the Hindus.

But of course the Imams never mention this in their discussions to the masses. It always Muslims that are the good guys, non-muslims are the bad guys.

I'm sick of this history revisionism.
 
Its like politics. If you want to give yourself a good image, you keep the good stuff, and then just dont tell the bad. Dont lie and say you didnt, just dont bring the subject up at all.
 
Well gents, the first nun has been murdered in Somalia... In the meanwhile I have seen the crusades pass the review as well and we are back at point nil: the kettle and the pot.
It is exactly this kind of relativism the Ratzinger tried to focus on and condemn. The quote was used in a wider theme, the clash of civilisations. He started with the relation between religion and violence. THis is where the quote came into play. He wanted to go into a broader perspective and the role that religion could play in daily life and in politics...
I rarely lose my coll in conversations like this, but what could on muslim brethren possibly be mad about this time. They are mad because a Byzantime emperor said something, that in his days wasn´t so far off the bloody mark! To bad they aren´t allowed to have a stiff drink, maybe that would put things into perspective some.

On a lighter note, I only hear the muslims in developmental countries cry wolve. All the muslim unions overhere keep their mind cool, their composure calm and a keen eye on things.... Funny business, ain´t it?
 
Rabs said:
Theres also this little thing called it being the 21st century, not the 1st.
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Not everyone evolves at the same rate... The fact that almost all nations with a Christian background has evolved to the richest most powerful nations in the world leaving the nations with Islamic backgrounds in the grips of poverty doesn't help much. Well, you know what sociologists say about religion: religious fanaticism is an escape for the impoverished. it gives them hope and direction.
 
The latest news on this topic is that the Pope issued an apology at the regretable misinterpretation of his lecture. Nevertheless Somalian and other Islamic leaders have called for his immediate assassination and to get the ball rolling a Somalian nun has been murdered by muslims.

So lets examine their logic. They object to any inference that they are violent by threatening murder - and carrying it out - towards those who say so and even those who don't (ie. the poor innocent nun).

I better understand why negotiating with these people in the Middle East is impossible. Now do you understand why many of us shudder at the thought of these mad men possessing nuclear weapons?
 
Yea, because that logic makes perfect sense... I agree, Padre. The thought of these men having nuclear weapons is a very disturbing thought indeed.
 
Well gents, I am starting to think you might be right. Some of these clergy men are about as bend as a circle. They want an apology, get an apology and still it isn't okay....
Pfff what a mess!
 
So that we may better annalyze the next in the series of Islam throwing a tantrum and the rest of the world being absolutely sick of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

Wikipedia said:
On September 12, 2006, while lecturing on "Faith, Reason and the University" at the University of Regensburg, where he was formerly a professor, Pope Benedict quoted the opinion of Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos, "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." In the original German, Benedict XVI described this critical opinion of Manuel II as "addressed... with a startling brusqueness" [46] ("in erstaunlich schroffer, uns überraschend schroffer Form" [47] ). The remark was meant to compare early Muslim teaching on religious freedom with the later teaching on jihad,[citation needed] and was cited as part of a larger theological assertion, that "reason and faith go hand in hand, and that the concept of a holy war is always unreasonable, and against the nature of God, Muslim or Christian"[citation needed][48]
The quotation from this medieval text drew condemnation from a number of individual governmental representatives and Muslim religious leaders, including the governments of Turkey, Somalia and Pakistan, as well as India's major political parties.[citation needed] The Director of the Vatican press office, Federico Lombardi, tried to clarify the Pope's statement: "It was certainly not the intention of the Holy Father to undertake a comprehensive study of the jihad and of Muslim ideas on the subject, still less to offend the sensibilities of Muslim faithful. Quite the contrary, what emerges clearly from the Holy Father’s discourses is a warning, addressed to Western culture, to avoid 'the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom'."[49]
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So we get to hear nonstop whining about the evils of Israel, while Islam refuses to acknowledge its own crimes against humanity. Political cartoonists are threatened with death for daring to depict Mohammed in a negative light. The Pope makes a quotation, the contents of which he does not necessarily believe to be true, and his life is in danger from Muslim assassins. How far will the stupidity go? When will Islam and its adherents grow the hell up???

Normally, I have a very tollerant view of Islam. I'm right there with Ted, my good will toward the Muslim world is wearing thin. I Islamic nations and Muslims everywhere are unwilling to do something drastic about their psycho-extremists problem then Islam's only noticable attribute to the rest world is that of terrorism, murder, death, destruction and blind intollerance. Generally, they don't condone violence but it seems to play out like this: Joe Muslim says, "Its a terrible thing that the extremists are doing BUT if you Americans/Christians/Hindus/Buddists/whatever would just change your positon on Israel/Iraq/Afganistan/Women/Kashmir/whatever then you wouldn't provoke them." Without says as much, "Its your own damn fault Muslim extremists are murdering people across the planet." And they take no accountability. Hezbollah is given free reign to opperate within Syria, Lebanon and Iran. Hamas gets elected to the ruling majority by the Palestinians. Al Qeda and the Taliban are still alive and well thanks to whom? It all ties back to general tollerance by Muslims for terrible people continuing to do terrible things.
 
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