Over the Top Training?

um... thats not as bad as in the russian military, where the second year recruits often torture the fresh recruits and use them as their tools

u can google the web for an article abou tthat in which i saw somwehre on a military forum, just cant find the time to locate it
 
CRUNKER said:
um... thats not as bad as in the russian military, where the second year recruits often torture the fresh recruits and use them as their tools

u can google the web for an article abou tthat in which i saw somwehre on a military forum, just cant find the time to locate it

If it's not worth your time to provide a source for this, it's not worthwhile to post it here either.

the_13th_redneck said:
Well you know Germans like that sort of stuff ;)

13th, be careful what you post here, things like this can be very sensitive subjects and are not the best places for jokes, however harmless you may think they are, they can easily be offensive to others.
 
Lets be carefull here as they are only allegations at this point. No one has been convicted as yet.

The reason I say this is many years ago I was in a unit that was under investigation for abuse it was in all the papers and in the end no body was found to be in the wrong. So before we jump to conclusions let justice run its course. If it is proven, than they will be dealt with by their proper legal system.
 
Breakdown and dysfunction of rule and order happens in every country at every level, it's human nature to have the potential to abuse power and make mistakes. I put this right up there with the beating and eventual killing of a homosexual US Army soldier a few years back, and let's not forget Abu Ghraib and what happened with Graner and England prior to the Abu Grahib scandal, so before we make judgements based on race, nationality, let's not forget that we have things like that happen on the homefront as well and they are isolated events for which we unfortunately get judged even though we may have nothing to do with them.
 
There are a few "facts" that seem to be missing. But it being CNN I'm not surprised.

1. What Type of Unit was this?

2. What kind of excercise / training was being conducted?

3. Were these Soliders trainees or assigned to a regular military unit?

If they were recruits or trainees then I have a problem with it. And would blame it on overzealous NCO's and a command breakdown.

If this was a Regular unit of Soliders in combat arms then to me it rings of SERE/ POW training. I have no problem with the military being trained to deal with that.
 
03USMC said:
There are a few "facts" that seem to be missing. But it being CNN I'm not surprised.

1. What Type of Unit was this?

2. What kind of excercise / training was being conducted?

3. Were these Soliders trainees or assigned to a regular military unit?

If they were recruits or trainees then I have a problem with it. And would blame it on overzealous NCO's and a command breakdown.

If this was a Regular unit of Soliders in combat arms then to me it rings of SERE/ POW training. I have no problem with the military being trained to deal with that.

I agree - this sounds like some sort of SERE/POW survival training. If you can't subject soldiers to conditions similar to those encountered in combat to teach them how to survive and persevere in that environment - what's the point of going into battle anyway? Such training would be on the same level as a college student studying prior to an exam - soldiers need to 'study' themselves and the conditions in which they may someday find themselves in order to perform at their peak, and survive.

The bottom line is this is plain ludicrousy. What's next? An injunction on sending recruits through the CS gas chamber? Lawsuits over blisters and chaffing brought on by an extended tactical road march? Pvt Cowboy v GSgt Hartman for emotional pain and distress over the "golfball through a gardenhose" (etc) comments?

On the other hand, if these were truly fresh recruits, such training seems harsh and extreme by American standards, but it may be commonplace in foreign armed forces - I'm not familiar enough with foreign forces to comment on them.
 
Back in the days when Taiwan was under martial law, new recruits in the army feared being sent to the islands close to China, becuase rumor had it that the amphibian Chinese marines, referred to as "water ghosts", would sneak up and kill the nightwatch. However later it was found out that the rumor started because some recruits were tortured to death, and they had to provide reasons for the families, so the Chinese marines were a convenient excuse. What they did to the recruits though I don't quite know.
 
Well, they do that kind of stuff with training for the CIA/FBI Don't they? Well,...not to that extent.
 
It sounds like SERE/POW training. And it is important and good training for anyone to have.

And it appears mild sprayed with water shocked. No sleep deprivation, food and water deprivation, endless interogations, solitary confinement, etc etc.

Something just does not add up for me.
 
I would equate this to what the US Army does with the new recruits, we walk into a gas chamber filled with some sort of tear agent. (Is it tear gas?) The reason we do this is to reassure us that our gas masks will work if used properly. Being shocked is nothing new for me, I have done backflips from getting electricuted and we spent a whole month is physics shocking ourselves with forces so strong that one kid was knocked to the floor and nearly passed out, that was when we deicided we had to many people in the chain.
 
Apperently being tazed is worse than being shot. My friends dad who is a piloce officer tazed me (mildly) to show me what it was like. I can honestly say it was one of the worst feelings in the world.
 
"we walk into a gas chamber filled with some sort of tear agent. (Is it tear gas?) The reason we do this is to reassure us that our gas masks will work if used properly."

We did the same. Not bad and harms nobody if mask used properly. Just walk in and wander for a couple of minutes around the table where some tear gas was put on. The worst thing is to unwear rainsuit and mask clean them. A bit gas is easily left on the gear and then tastes real dark chocolade in throat.

How is the real fear caused in POW exercises? Because it is just an exercise, everyone knows that they can't be killed or really harmed or injured if accidents aren't count.
 
Knowing and believing are two different things. It's different than your run of the mill training. The OPFOR speaking a different language or broken language. Threats, controlled abuse. Some people can't handle it.
 
03USMC said:
Knowing and believing are two different things. It's different than your run of the mill training. The OPFOR speaking a different language or broken language. Threats, controlled abuse. Some people can't handle it.

Yes but if isn't a real situation and real enemy, only threat is to get only asskicked but not killed. No fingers are cut off or not really and seriously injured or raped. But the situation could be much different when being alone in hands of enemies who are acting very violent and a recent danger to get executed is present. And yes, some peopple can't handle it if situation threatening at all.
 
How generous.
Korean Army:
Walk in with mask. Yes, your mask works. Now we will show you what happens if you don't wear the mask. Please take off your mask. No? Well we'll rip them off for you. Good. Now start doing jumping jacks. Stop. Roll on the floor and get the tear gas agent all over you. Very good. You may now step outside.

EuroSpike said:
"we walk into a gas chamber filled with some sort of tear agent. (Is it tear gas?) The reason we do this is to reassure us that our gas masks will work if used properly."

We did the same. Not bad and harms nobody if mask used properly. Just walk in and wander for a couple of minutes around the table where some tear gas was put on. The worst thing is to unwear rainsuit and mask clean them. A bit gas is easily left on the gear and then tastes real dark chocolade in throat.

How is the real fear caused in POW exercises? Because it is just an exercise, everyone knows that they can't be killed or really harmed or injured if accidents aren't count.
 
EuroSpike said:
"we walk into a gas chamber filled with some sort of tear agent. (Is it tear gas?) The reason we do this is to reassure us that our gas masks will work if used properly."

We did the same. Not bad and harms nobody if mask used properly. Just walk in and wander for a couple of minutes around the table where some tear gas was put on. The worst thing is to unwear rainsuit and mask clean them. A bit gas is easily left on the gear and then tastes real dark chocolade in throat.

How is the real fear caused in POW exercises? Because it is just an exercise, everyone knows that they can't be killed or really harmed or injured if accidents aren't count.

But see, in the Army they make you take off the mask and take a few deep breaths to really drive the message home.
 
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