New health care system

I am under the impression that some stay on the beaten track and play the "broken-record-strategy". Don't you see that this is a chance to devise a plan, a complete new plan. Here you can make and regulate everything your way. The government has the role of an arbiter. You know compagnies are in it for the money and your government isn't in this one for crowd-control or something. And the best part is that you get to vote directly, so if you don't like that plan don't vote on it.

When reading the posts I just get convinced that there is a lot of politcal cowardice. Nobody dares to give the democratic powers back to the demos; the people. You'd need a truly inspiring leader to waking the ones who are the power in a democracy. But these are hard to come by.

And Rob, I am glad that you agree with me that it would be easier. It makes me feel that I convinced you a little :)
 
Not so much cowardice as money. Most of our polictians are the pockets of lobbyists and fill their campaign chests thru "donations" from special interest groups. So in a sense cowardice does come into play.....their afraid to loose the money.
 
I'm pretty sure they get their arm twisted too.
Large companies have their own little squads of dirt diggers... dig a little dirt on a politician and give him an offer. You take the money or the press get a hold of something "interesting" from an "anonymous" source.
Makes you wonder why the military has so little political power. If they can have seats in government so should the military.
 
Ted said:
I am under the impression that some stay on the beaten track and play the "broken-record-strategy". Don't you see that this is a chance to devise a plan, a complete new plan. Here you can make and regulate everything your way. The government has the role of an arbiter. You know compagnies are in it for the money and your government isn't in this one for crowd-control or something. And the best part is that you get to vote directly, so if you don't like that plan don't vote on it.

When reading the posts I just get convinced that there is a lot of politcal cowardice. Nobody dares to give the democratic powers back to the demos; the people. You'd need a truly inspiring leader to waking the ones who are the power in a democracy. But these are hard to come by.

And Rob, I am glad that you agree with me that it would be easier. It makes me feel that I convinced you a little :)
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Another thing, Ted... Look what you posted... "You'd need a truly inspiring leader to waking the ones who are the power in a democracy." I know it's not what you meant by it, but to me, and probably to a lot of those afraid to lose their money, that sounds almost Hitler-esque... But yes, I do agree that on certain issues, the politicians COULD be kept out...



An interesting side note on the health care side of it... A recent poll from NPR has shown that about 63% of DOCTORS favor a private AND public option of health care, and 10% favor ONLY the public option.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960&sc=fb&cc=fp


What say you naysayers to the fact that the physicians who actually care for you are pushing for the mixed option?
 
Rob Henderson said:
Another thing, Ted... Look what you posted... "You'd need a truly inspiring leader to waking the ones who are the power in a democracy." I know it's not what you meant by it, but to me, and probably to a lot of those afraid to lose their money, that sounds almost Hitler-esque... But yes, I do agree that on certain issues, the politicians COULD be kept out...



An interesting side note on the health care side of it... A recent poll from NPR has shown that about 63% of DOCTORS favor a private AND public option of health care, and 10% favor ONLY the public option.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960&sc=fb&cc=fp


What say you naysayers to the fact that the physicians who actually care for you are pushing for the mixed option?
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While you were listening to NPR & thier AMA survey(AMA represents only 18% of Doctors) I was listening to Neal Boortz & he was covering a survey of the whole field of Doctors. Considerably different results. Majority oppose the plans in Washington & up to 45% might quit if it passes. Linky
 
Your survey took the opinions of 1,376 physicians... The NPR survey surveyed more than 2,000...


Which one took more again?


SORRY!
 
Well it's not so much as to how many (though you'd think at least 2,000 would be neccessary) but how and who.
This sort of thing is too easy to manipulate.
 
03USMC said:
Not so much cowardice as money. Most of our polictians are the pockets of lobbyists and fill their campaign chests thru "donations" from special interest groups. So in a sense cowardice does come into play.....their afraid to loose the money.
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True, that some are coericed. And sometimes not just campaign contributions it can be downright blackmail. For example they say if we dont get "X" we will move the factory in your district to Indonesia, put all your supporters on the unemployment line.

But even worse are those that are willing to cullude with Lobbiests against the public interest. They make deals that promise "consultancy" jobs once they are out of office. You go to any lobbiest group or think-tank on J or K street in Washington DC and you will see thats its a dumping aground for used politicans. (Personally I'd dump them in the Potomac with the rest of the leeches but that poor river is polluted enough).
 
Sorry for coming to this debate late, I haven't read all the posts, but I've got a flavour. From my perspective the healthcare debate in America is very complex, because it relates to multiple issues, for my American friends please feel free to correct me. I've spoken with a lot of people about this and here is what I've synthesised:

1. Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the health system needs to change and that everyone should have health coverage.
2. Most have a fear of the Federal govt interfering with their lives, dictating what they can and can't do, this is a nation founded on free choice and minimal government interference!
3. Status quo, on the whole those that have health cover are happy with it, because they know they are covered (in the main). They do not know how they would be impacted by change - after all politicians are the masters of compromise and they deal in generalities, people want specifics. Those that aren't covered want reform, so that they can protect their families, because they feel vulnerable.
4. Cost - who is going to pay, my friends are happy to pay for their families, but don't feel inclined to pay for other people to have healthcare - after all it's their money, they don't want to be told how to use it.
5. Distrust that politicians are actually looking after their interests and are only looking to their next election, not the long term.

From my point of view i think that healthcare reform is necessary, but I don't think that the politicians have done a great job of explaining themselves, those for have no unity on what should be covered and what not, those against have succeeded in muddying the waters by picking talking points and hammering them home.

The issue of lobbyists hasn't even been taken into account, but they represent commercial interests that could lose huge amounts of revenue and they are doing their best to protect their income.

As a side note, the federal govt already runs approx 40% of the healthcare system, through the VA, medicaid and medicare, but haven't done a stellar job there, so people ask how well could they manage a larger chunk of this pie?

I find it amusing that the debate involves comparison with other health systems, instead of a "supposedly" innovative country actually trying to create a uniquely American solution, taking the best of other healthcare systems and combining them with the best of the current system. At the end of the day something has to be done, but the feeling is that if the govt is involved it will ultimately fail.
 
mmarsh said:
True, that some are coericed. And sometimes not just campaign contributions it can be downright blackmail. For example they say if we dont get "X" we will move the factory in your district to Indonesia, put all your supporters on the unemployment line.

But even worse are those that are willing to cullude with Lobbiests against the public interest. They make deals that promise "consultancy" jobs once they are out of office. You go to any lobbiest group or think-tank on J or K street in Washington DC and you will see thats its a dumping aground for used politicans. (Personally I'd dump them in the Potomac with the rest of the leeches but that poor river is polluted enough).
Click to expand...

For the truth, look no further.
 
Partisan said:
2. Most have a fear of the Federal govt interfering with their lives, dictating what they can and can't do, this is a nation founded on free choice and minimal government interference!
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People get all panicky about the big, bad, government but what people keep forgetting is that in terms of healthcare we already have an organization that interferes with peoples lives and who dictate what people can and cannot do: its called the insurence industry.

They are the ones who decide what is covered (little) and what is not. They are the ones who decide if they will insure you or not. They will decide how much you pay and they can either change the terms of your policy or drop you completely without warning or justification.

And worse this has been the status quo for the past 30 years. They have had 30 years to improve themselves, and not only have they refused they obstructed any attempt from to change their little monoploy, whats happened to Obama is case in point. Evertime a politican republican or democrat proposes a change, they HMO goes into overdrive to kill it, even when its things with obvious benefits to the community like the SCHIPP program which provides healthcare to poor children.

Furthermore the US government already supplies free healthcare to specific groups like Vets, retirees, prisoners, Federal politicans, and the worse cases of destitute such as children. These programs are already in place, but yet the HMOs and their lackeys are telling everyone that what is good enough for the small groups listed above is a "dictatorship" for the rest of America.

Please. HMO is a trillion dollar business, anybody can tell that this is about money not politics. HMOs do not want to compete with a system that is more efficent and cheaper then they are. Its that simple.
 
George said:
While you were listening to NPR & thier AMA survey(AMA represents only 18% of Doctors) I was listening to Neal Boortz & he was covering a survey of the whole field of Doctors. Considerably different results. Majority oppose the plans in Washington & up to 45% might quit if it passes. Linky
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And while Henderson found evidence that supports his side you found evidence to support yours.

I'm not quite sure what the big revelation is here. If I'm a third party, I'm going with the larger sample size.
 
Even though the stronger support is in smaller size.... Cmon George... Give it up. Or find me a link to a survey with 3,000 physicians who say they oppose it.
 
Rob Henderson said:
Even though the stronger support is in smaller size.... Cmon George... Give it up. Or find me a link to a survey with 3,000 physicians who say they oppose it.
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I am afraid that this is how things go in the big league too, only are the stakes higher... In the end the focus is laid on such small details, that the big issue stays unresolved.
 
After years on Political Forums this is the 1st time anyone has tried "My sample is bigger than your sample" as a valid argument, except some surveys that used extremely small samples that could be easily nonrepresentative.
 
I learned in Uni that for standard deviation and all kinds of statical mathematics you only need a population of 129. This number already allows for all kinds of conclusions. I reckon that 2000 or 3000 will do too.... And who really cares?
 
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