A must read for Americans

Hear! Hear! This is indeed the point with letting these people vote. And after reading Boris's comments about taxation I would proffer that those who do pay taxes are suffering from "taxation with under-representation".
:brave:
Freedom is actually responsibility, see Marinerhodes recent post on the topic for an eloquent discourse on the logic. Part of freedom in the US entails choosing the leaders of our government. If you demonstrate gross negligence and irresponsibility in your own affairs how can we as rational human beings afford you the opportunity to screw up our national affairs? To dumb it down... why do we have to suffer because you are a lazy ignorant wart on the arse of society??

ONLY THOSE WITH A PHD SHOULD VOTE!

How about making voting dependent on university education? Since even slumlords and pimps own property, I say that we make voting dependent on university standards. In fact, only those with a PhD from a recognized university should vote. That would cut potential voters to less than one percent of the population. But we would at least know that these people are capable of independently assessing the capacities of the politicians. In relation to those with doctorates, everyone else is just a "lazy ignorant wart on the arse of society". Or, when was the last time that you heard a think tank like the Heritage Foundation actually ask John Doe the mechanic for his opinion concerning the taxonomic artifacts of cross-border conflict.

Why do we need voting anyway? A majority of society -- the masses and the affluent -- want a strongman (in this case smartman) running the show. Why not have an authoritarian system based on an oligarchy drawn from the top 100 American corporations or top 10 universities?

Dr. Ollie Garchy, PhD. :pray:

(Once again...this is satire, folks).
 
See why make a joke of it when you can dicuss it properly, sure this is only a internet forum. But your satire isnt funny and doesnt debate anything it only proves how smart you think you are.
 
Requiring military service for citizenship is a dangerous precedent. As much as the world needs leaders who are warriors, it also needs those who are not. Balance is a necessity.

I like the idea of only allowing citizens who pay taxes the privilege of voting. It rips the guts out of the obstinately indigent voter base. Obviously there would be lots of different ramifications involved, but the basic idea is sound enough. The only problem I see with it is that it sort of ties us to a federal income tax. Hopefully that system will go by the wayside eventually. Might be better to use the idea that one cannot vote if they've received welfare as "x" percentage of their income for "x" length of time.
 
Requireing military service to vote is not a good idea; however, it might be a very good idea for the President to have served in the military.

I know that it might be hard, and harder now than ever before, but to understand how the military works might be a plus for the Commander in Chief of the military.
 
I have to disagree there as well. I'll not be the one to sidetrack this topic (any more than I already am) with discussions of the merits of previous presidents in relation to military service so here's the simplified form. The president cannot be expected to be an expert or even journeyman at all aspects of government. It's simply too much for one person to know. What the president is responsible for is realizing what he doesn't know and surrounding himself with trustworthy experts who can provide him with the information required to make an intelligent decision. Having a broad knowledge-base (which they don't teach as the Ivy-League schools our presidents seem fond of) is a key. Specialization simply leads to less knowledge in more areas.

...sorry about chasing rabbits in your topic, Bulldogg. I'll stop now, I swear. :D
 
ONLY THOSE WITH A PHD SHOULD VOTE!

How about making voting dependent on university education?
......................................................................................
Dr. Ollie Garchy, PhD. :pray:

(Once again...this is satire, folks).


It is always a pleasure to read your posts, Ollie!:lol:

However, something should be done to improve our democracy!
 
See why make a joke of it when you can dicuss it properly, sure this is only a internet forum. But your satire isnt funny and doesnt debate anything it only proves how smart you think you are.

Boo Hoo. Ollie's satire isn't funny and doesn't debate anything. It is all intended to show how smart he is.

That's right, Donkey. Ollie pulls out the thesaurus and labours over every word. He sits at his computer for hours and dreams up fantastic ways of demonstrating his intelligence. His purpose is to show the world his many virtues. You see, he has nothing better to do. He is the Dr. No of hubris.

Nor does he have any interest in academic debates. In fact, his last satirical post did not attempt to show the arrogance inherent in trying to define voter eligibility on the basis of intelligence (or any other factor). He did not want to show that the logic of this argument only led down a dangerous road of exclusion. But Ollie has no interest in promoting minority protection, democratic rights or basic freedom. Ollie is too busy trying to demonstrate his innate intelligence...his academic virtuosity.
 
Attaboy Ollie. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, blind them with Bulls**t. That way you cover everyone.:santa:
 
I agree the requirement of military service is unfeasable as it would preclude the right to vote to people like Deerslayer and others who for no fault of their own are not qualified to serve. However, the original claim and topic of this thread, rabbit chasing and egotistical flatulence aside, stands as valid and in keeping with the wishes and proven intent of our founding fathers. This would not make sense or be a good cultural fit to many of the socialist cultures of Europe and hence the title of the thread as well.
 
Service (or) no vote .......

I have to agree that it would be a d*mn good idea if the man who is going to serve as CinC would have at least served a tour of duty in one of the military branches. Having the power to send our military members into harms way, prior military service should be mandatory for ANYONE who runs for the office of President of the United States (CinC) .... not elective. On top of that, if this person can NOT show a 'clean' military record, it should eliminate him/her from the ballot of those running for the office.


As far as changing voter requirements:
If you are bound and determined to change the requirements for those who are allowed to vote, then it should be mandatory for you to serve a minimum two years of service to our country, in either a military or public service corps, PRIOR to you receiving your franchise. The public service corps could be at the local, state or federal level.

This way, you pay for your right to vote, with service to your country.

Service or no vote ..... seems equitable to me.
 
Myself, Chief and most Americans view the President's job as first and foremost Commander-in-Chief, ask anyone on the street, you may have to describe to them a couple times what you mean, because they will likely say "protect America" but ask them for something more specific and they will say he is the Commander-in-Chief.

Army, Navy and Air Force compete for the Commander-in-Chief trophy every year, not the Chief-Legislater cup.

Of course part of the problem can be blamed on the voters, when you elect a President who fled to Canada to dodge the draft (Clinton) you can't be surprised when the military is one of the first to feel the ill effects of his budget cutbacks to pay for social welfare programs.
 
I have to agree that it would be a d*mn good idea if the man who is going to serve as CinC would have at least served a tour of duty in one of the military branches. Having the power to send our military members into harms way, prior military service should be mandatory for ANYONE who runs for the office of President of the United States (CinC) .... not elective. On top of that, if this person can NOT show a 'clean' military record, it should eliminate him/her from the ballot of those running for the office.


As far as changing voter requirements:
If you are bound and determined to change the requirements for those who are allowed to vote, then it should be mandatory for you to serve a minimum two years of service to our country, in either a military or public service corps, PRIOR to you receiving your franchise. The public service corps could be at the local, state or federal level.

This way, you pay for your right to vote, with service to your country.

Service or no vote ..... seems equitable to me.

That surprises me, especially coming from you.

That would cut down the number of people voting by a substantial percentage and would guarantee a republican in the office in virtually every state and every office. Just in case you haven't checked the make up of the military lately, there are far more republicans that have served vs democrats.

Bad move if you want to keep a checks and balances government.
 
A question of viewpoint I guess .....

That surprises me, especially coming from you.

That would cut down the number of people voting by a substantial percentage and would guarantee a republican in the office in virtually every state and every office. Just in case you haven't checked the make up of the military lately, there are far more republicans that have served vs democrats.

Bad move if you want to keep a checks and balances government.
Just why should you be surprised? What makes you so positive that I would NOT support a Republican in the Whitehouse?

There are members on this forum (and on others), that still don't get it. I have always ... and ... will always, vote for the man or woman who I think is best qualified for the job. I haven't voted a straight ticket in over 40 some years (almost 50).

That is the main reason I can NOT support the present occupant of the Oval Office in the Whitehouse. I have nothing but disgust and and a lack of respect for the man. You continuously point a finger at me and constantly cast aspersions on my patriotism and accuse me of disrespecting the office of President, when what the problem is, is the fact that I have zero respect for the man ... NOT THE OFFICE.

You believe that my lack of giving the man the title every time I mention him is a slam against the office, and I view it as a political dissent or comment against the man.

A question of viewpoint I guess.

As far as the checks and balance, IF both parties would work at extending a hand across the aisle, and actually practice non-partisan politics, then we wouldn't constantly have to worry about checks and balances would we?
 
The problem is still there. They may have earned the right with service to the country but if they fail to handle their own fiscal affairs I still hold they forfeit the right to dictate through elections how the national affairs are to be handled. Not a permanent loss but according to the time they are off the wagon so to speak.
 
Just why should you be surprised? What makes you so positive that I would NOT support a Republican in the Whitehouse?

There are members on this forum (and on others), that still don't get it. I have always ... and ... will always, vote for the man or woman who I think is best qualified for the job. I haven't voted a straight ticket in over 40 some years (almost 50).

That is the main reason I can NOT support the present occupant of the Oval Office in the Whitehouse. I have nothing but disgust and and a lack of respect for the man. You continuously point a finger at me and constantly cast aspersions on my patriotism and accuse me of disrespecting the office of President, when what the problem is, is the fact that I have zero respect for the man ... NOT THE OFFICE.

You believe that my lack of giving the man the title every time I mention him is a slam against the office, and I view it as a political dissent or comment against the man.

A question of viewpoint I guess.

As far as the checks and balance, IF both parties would work at extending a hand across the aisle, and actually practice non-partisan politics, then we wouldn't constantly have to worry about checks and balances would we?

I have always understood that you hate the President. You can find nothing he has done that is good.

Not a question of viewpoint at all, it's a personal choice and disrespect for the country.
 
[Point Four]: "Until we place quality for voters on the same level as quantity of voters, we will continue to elect officials with the lowest common denominator of the voters. When the tax consumers out vote the taxpayers both the property and the liberty of the minority is held hostage by the tax-consuming majority. It shocking when one considers that more knowledge has to be demonstrated earning the privilege of driving a car, getting a hunting license or cutting someone's hair than it takes to qualify to vote. Why should someone who is a convicted felon be allowed to vote? Why should someone living on government subsides be allowed to vote? Why should someone who files bankruptcy be allowed to vote? In all of these cases the individual has proven he is not responsible enough to manage his own affairs. Being unable to manage one's own affairs should not be a qualification for running the affairs of state".

Is Point Four Valid?:​

Since some of the forum members appear to support point four, how about subjecting it to some criticism? Let's see where some reflection takes us.

Corporate Welfare vs. Human Welfare or "Taxpayer" vs. "Tax consumer".

Thesis: A large group in modern society offers no financial or ancilliary input. This group should not determine the political composition of the organic whole. Political participation is earned. It is not a human right.

Observation: We all know where this argument takes us. It suggests that the rich should vote and the poor should not. But do the rich really pay tax or contribute to the social organism? The United States does not have a real social welfare system. The benefits run from modest to mythical. The percentages of taxation input run at the lowest levels in the industrialized world. So what, you say? You think that this is an argument for "Point Four"? Well, why is it that the corporations in America receive around $125 Billion per year in tax breaks, subsidies, etc. With the further creation of tax holidays (on a yearly basis), the NYT argues that all of this will "further erode the nation's corporate tax base and impugn the system's integrity". The NYT argues that the corporations seem to be creating a case whereby they would no longer pay any tax at all. American corporate subsidies are already the hightest in the world. And, I tell you, the rich just love these handouts. "Why should someone living on government subsides be allowed to vote"...hmmm.

Observation: What does productive even mean? There are many people who perform non-productive labour. Some people teach, others are crown lawyers, some are members of the military. None of these people build anything. In fact, they all receive their money from the STATE...just like a welfare recipient. The civil service of any country is massive, but it is wrong to argue that all members of private enterprise are productive. Private companies and organizations also have a lot of "dead-weight". Not only do most organizations support "Dad's idiot son(s)", they have hundreds and thousands of rubber-stampers, advertisers, telemarketers, sales people, filers, clerks, copiers, organizers, etc. None of these people build anything. Most of their jobs can be replaced by machines. Only the working class (on the line) build anything. Maybe only they should vote? But that would be communism. In any case, the rich shareholder who inherited all of their money is classified as a parasite by some people.

Observation: The argument that voters need some kind of special education is often made. Some people have suggested that those who wish to have children should also go to college. Ok. But this argument can be made for many things. It is utterly flawed because it confuses human rights with something earned. Do we need to go to school to learn how to breathe? Do you we need schooling to learn how to speak? No. Why, then, can we breathe or speak. The answer is simple. Because we can. Becoming a medical doctor is different because it is not a part of our genetic makeup. Organizing in a collective is! I repeat, organizing in a collective is a part of our genetic code. It is instinct. It is what we do. Do wolves need a degree to form their pack. No. Politics is instinct and therefore based on a natural right or proclivity.

Observation: Every human, from the poorest to the richest, from the dumbest to the smartest, from the ugliest to the most beautiful, is a part of the social contract. As such, they have the inalienable right to participate in our political forums. They might suck. They might get in the way. They might even stink. But they are there.

Quick conclusion: "Point Four" is anti-human and plainly illogical.

(1) "The right to vote freely for the candidate of one’s choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government". Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964).

(2) "Equality before the law" is a fundamental cornerstone of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. The US government forced the world to accept the UN. It was largely an American idea. Live with your monster and stop acting like the Germans or French or British are trying to force you to do anything. It's the other way around.

(3) "We the People of the United States"...not "We the rich and propertied People of the United States"...or "We the educated People of the United States". Of course, "People" in those days did not mean slaves or indians, etc. But these views of the "founding fathers" no longer apply. Rightly so. The "founding fathers" were not gods.

http://www.progress.org/corpw30.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/30/o...and&adxnnlx=1163153625-4yE/hbEK5XhTXPxQ+rbySA+
http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/research/chasp/wp_bigchoices.pdf
http://www.hrw.org/reports98/vote/
 
[Point Four]: "Until we place quality for voters on the same level as quantity of voters, we will continue to elect officials with the lowest common denominator of the voters. When the tax consumers out vote the taxpayers both the property and the liberty of the minority is held hostage by the tax-consuming majority. It shocking when one considers that more knowledge has to be demonstrated earning the privilege of driving a car, getting a hunting license or cutting someone's hair than it takes to qualify to vote. Why should someone who is a convicted felon be allowed to vote? Why should someone living on government subsides be allowed to vote? Why should someone who files bankruptcy be allowed to vote? In all of these cases the individual has proven he is not responsible enough to manage his own affairs. Being unable to manage one's own affairs should not be a qualification for running the affairs of state".

Is Point Four Valid?:​

Since some of the forum members appear to support point four, how about subjecting it to some criticism? Let's see where some reflection takes us.

Corporate Welfare vs. Human Welfare or "Taxpayer" vs. "Tax consumer".

Thesis: A large group in modern society offers no financial or ancilliary input. This group should not determine the political composition of the organic whole. Political participation is earned. It is not a human right.

Your thesis is flawed.
Political participation should be denied to those who have demonstrated the inability to successfully manage their own affairs.
This is the logical fallacy called Strawman.


Observation: We all know where this argument takes us. It suggests that the rich should vote and the poor should not. But do the rich really pay tax or contribute to the social organism? The United States does not have a real social welfare system. The benefits run from modest to mythical. The percentages of taxation input run at the lowest levels in the industrialized world. So what, you say? You think that this is an argument for "Point Four"? Well, why is it that the corporations in America receive around $125 Billion per year in tax breaks, subsidies, etc. With the further creation of tax holidays (on a yearly basis), the NYT argues that all of this will "further erode the nation's corporate tax base and impugn the system's integrity". The NYT argues that the corporations seem to be creating a case whereby they would no longer pay any tax at all. American corporate subsidies are already the hightest in the world. And, I tell you, the rich just love these handouts. "Why should someone living on government subsides be allowed to vote"...hmmm.

Corporations do not vote.
Logical fallacy Red Herring


Observation: What does productive even mean? There are many people who perform non-productive labour. Some people teach, others are crown lawyers, some are members of the military. None of these people build anything. In fact, they all receive their money from the STATE...just like a welfare recipient. The civil service of any country is massive, but it is wrong to argue that all members of private enterprise are productive. Private companies and organizations also have a lot of "dead-weight". Not only do most organizations support "Dad's idiot son(s)", they have hundreds and thousands of rubber-stampers, advertisers, telemarketers, sales people, filers, clerks, copiers, organizers, etc. None of these people build anything. Most of their jobs can be replaced by machines. Only the working class (on the line) build anything. Maybe only they should vote? But that would be communism. In any case, the rich shareholder who inherited all of their money is classified as a parasite by some people.

You have not proven what productive means and misrepresented what communism is.
Logical fallacy Appeal to Ignorance


Observation: The argument that voters need some kind of special education is often made. Some people have suggested that those who wish to have children should also go to college. Ok. But this argument can be made for many things. It is utterly flawed because it confuses human rights with something earned. Do we need to go to school to learn how to breathe? Do you we need schooling to learn how to speak? No. Why, then, can we breathe or speak. The answer is simple. Because we can. Becoming a medical doctor is different because it is not a part of our genetic makeup. Organizing in a collective is! I repeat, organizing in a collective is a part of our genetic code. It is instinct. It is what we do. Do wolves need a degree to form their pack. No. Politics is instinct and therefore based on a natural right or proclivity.

A claim with no proof, "politics is instinct". Have you read Aristotle's treatise on Politics? And again this is not about politics it is about demonstrated irresponsibility.
Logical fallacies of Strawman and Red Herring.


Observation: Every human, from the poorest to the richest, from the dumbest to the smartest, from the ugliest to the most beautiful, is a part of the social contract. As such, they have the inalienable right to participate in our political forums. They might suck. They might get in the way. They might even stink. But they are there.

A claim with no proof. The social contract is a theory not a fact or law.
Logical fallacy Appeal to Ignorance.

Quick conclusion: "Point Four" is anti-human and plainly illogical.

Your points have not been proven and as a matter of fact do not follow logic but rather are a profound advertisement for logical fallacies and the appeal to emotion rather than intellect.

(1) "The right to vote freely for the candidate of one’s choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government". Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964).

This is not in keeping with the intent of the founding fathers or the delineated legal writings in the constitution expounding upon voting rights. A simple case of the Supreme Court over stepping its constitutional limits. The fact is was not challenged is due to the unwillingness of the elected officials to step up in light of its popular support. But it does not make it legal.

(2) "Equality before the law" is a fundamental cornerstone of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. The US government forced the world to accept the UN. It was largely an American idea. Live with your monster and stop acting like the Germans or French or British are trying to force you to do anything. It's the other way around.

The day the UN overrides the US government is the day I go to war, I'll be damned if I will live by their edicts.
Logical fallacy Appeal to Force.

(3) "We the People of the United States"...not "We the rich and propertied People of the United States"...or "We the educated People of the United States". Of course, "People" in those days did not mean slaves or indians, etc. But these views of the "founding fathers" no longer apply. Rightly so. The "founding fathers" were not gods.

My advice is to stick to Germany as this is a discussion regarding the USA, not Germany, the EU, NATO or the UN.

www.fallacyfiles.org
 
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My advice...take it easy. Don't just appeal to normative statements. Everything can be reduced to red herrings, etc. Just because you claim something is not evidence. Support it with a fact or two. The problem is that your reading of these matters is what you claim in my case. Read the corpus of political philosophy. Western philosophers generally attack the notion of positive law and argue against cultural relativism and for natural law.

See: http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/natlaw.htm


I could go through your statements, and be as trivial as you appear to be, but I don't have time. Think of this, though: A corporation is considered a person...that is the law. If you don't think so, too bad for you. Anyway, if you believe that Nike, Coke, GM, or other corporations exert no influence on the government, then I give up.

A corporation is a person: "The law typically views a corporation as a fictional person, a legal person, or a moral person (as opposed to a natural person); United States law recognises this as corporate personhood. Under such a doctrine (traditionally seen as a legal fiction), a corporation enjoys many of the rights and obligations of individual persons, such as the ability to own property, sign binding contracts, pay taxes, have certain constitutional rights, and otherwise participate in society. (Note that corporations do not possess all the rights appertaining to individuals: in most jurisdictions, for example, a corporation cannot become a citizen nor vote.)".

Corporations exert political influence: "Cohesive groups (such as a single-interest group like ExxonMobil or a group of companies in one industry) have more cohesive policy views than the general public, and are better able to coordinate their actions to achieve a desired outcome. Thus, they attempt to influence policy, confident that public opinion will be a relatively insignificant factor. For more on the theoretical bases of lobbying, see Mancur Olson's work on the collective action problem".

In any case, I was only responding to the crap written in "Point Four". That fellow only randomly shot off weird point after weird point...with no analysis or facts. I tried to think about the crap. That is all.

Your Own Government (Judiciary) stated this: "The right to vote freely for the candidate of one’s choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government". Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964). Why do you attack your own system? This statement does not come from me! All you do is try to use the founding fathers to backup your bigotry. Hey, they did not allow blacks to vote. How about overturning emancipation? Would you like that as well?

Some of your criticisms, like human equality requiring proof, are just dumb. Prove to me why poor people should not vote! Make a case instead of just appealing to bigotry. Why? Because they are dumb? Prove it. Prove to me that they are irresponsible. Show me evidence.

Of course, all of my arguments are red herrings, etc. I have not been blessed with your intelligence. I have not eaten from the tree of knowledge like you have.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbying
 
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