The Missile Miracle In China

longriver

Active member
June 15, 2010: The chatter in China, and military deployments, indicate that the leadership believes they are now able to take Taiwan by force, before the United States can intervene. Such an attack would have to be without warning, because the United States would put forces in the way if there was any indication that an invasion was imminent.

This development comes as no surprise to those who have been watching military and political developments in China and Taiwan during the past two decades. At the end of the Cold War, China had three million troops on active duty, but their weapons, warships and aircraft were largely 1950s technology. They had no ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan, because the only missiles China had were equipped with nuclear warheads and aimed at Russia. The Chinese navy had miniscule amphibious forces and little confidence that the Chinese air force could attain air superiority over the Taiwan Straits, so that they could get troops across.

Twenty years later, the Taiwanese navy has declined while the Chinese force has expanded and been modernized. The Chinese now have nearly as many modern aircraft as Taiwan, and Chinese pilots are much better trained. Amphibious shipping has been greatly expanded, as have airborne forces and army units trained for amphibious landings.

Perhaps the most important change since 1991 is China's force of precision guided missiles and rockets. China has built many, more accurate and cheaper, short range ballistic missiles. China has created a line of shorter range ballistic and cruise missiles meant for non-nuclear war. China has stationed over 1,200 short range ballistic missiles within range of Taiwan. All of these missiles can be launched in a short period of time, overwhelming Taiwan's small anti-missile defenses, and wrecking airfields, ports and army bases.

China is also replacing older short range ballistic missiles with GPS guided 406mm missiles, carried in self-propelled rocket launchers. The WS-2 system consists of an 8x8 truck mounting six canisters, each holding a 1.3 ton, 406mm WS-2 rocket. The WS-2 has a max range of 200 kilometers. Warheads can be as large as 200 kilograms (440 pounds), for the 70 kilometers range version. At 200 kilometers, the warhead is about half that size. The warheads use cluster bomb munitions. The WS-3 version has GPS guidance, a smaller warhead and a longer range (over 300 kilometers). This enables the missile to hit targets all over Taiwan. While the original WS-2 rocket was unguided, and could land within 600 meters of the aiming point at maximum range. The WS-3, using GPS or inertial navigation, as well as terminal homing guidance, can take out key installations on Taiwan. The WS-2 is similar to the U.S. 610mm, 1.8 ton ATACMS rocket, which has GPS guidance and a range of 300 kilometers. Each ATACMS rocket costs about a million dollars. The WS-2 rocket probably goes for less than $100,000 each, although the WS-3 probably costs several times that.

China also continues developing long range cruise missiles, and adapting them to operate from aircraft. The latest missile to get this treatment is the DH-10. This weapon is similar to early U.S. cruise missiles, and has a range of 1,500-3,000 kilometers and uses GPS, along with terrain mapping. The DH-10 was first shown publicly in the recent 60th anniversary of the communists taking control of China, on October 1st. The aircraft carrier version is called the CJ-10. This is believed to be based on some American cruise missile technology.

China has also developed anti-ship missiles similar to the U.S. Harpoon and French Exocet. But these are only effective on a modern aircraft that can maneuver and are equipped with electronic countermeasures to enable it to get close enough to a well defended target (like a U.S. Navy task force.) China, however, has both old and new aircraft assigned to its naval aviation force.

In two decades, China has developed a military force that can do one job very well; quickly capture Taiwan. In the same two decades, Taiwan has allowed its defenses to wither, betting the United States will protect them, no matter what.


http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htw.../20100615.aspx
 
OK, China's military superiority is indisputable, but i hope they won't consider this as a cause to take over Taiwan by force.
 
I think that this is one that the Chinese will keep in their back pocket. It is not the most pressing issue on their agenda and can be used to unify the nation, in case of serious internal strife - a la Argentina & UK (Falklands), or to divert attention from issues at home, most wars.

It is also a nice stick to hold over the heads of the Taiwanese.

At the moment I feel that China is trying to expand its glogal military reach in order to protect the strategic assets that it has and is securing.
 
June 15, 2010: The chatter in China, and military deployments, indicate that the leadership believes they are now able to take Taiwan by force, before the United States can intervene. Such an attack would have to be without warning, because the United States would put forces in the way if there was any indication that an invasion was imminent.
Does this mean we are going to intervene? I'm new at this kind of thing... but what kind of implication does it take, exactly?
 
Does this mean we are going to intervene? I'm new at this kind of thing... but what kind of implication does it take, exactly?
That's a good question by the way. During the last years i've been hearing about the possibility of the US intervention from anywhere except the United States itself. I lean to a view that this speculation is more a political instrument of the Politburo rather then a real possibility.
 
Does Anyone know or have an idea how the Chinese Df-21 anti ship ballistic missile would effect US navy Strategy such as how accrurate it might be or if the Navy has any defense against it?
 
Does Anyone know or have an idea how the Chinese Df-21 anti ship ballistic missile would effect US navy Strategy such as how accrurate it might be or if the Navy has any defense against it?
The DF-21 is not precisely ballistic, but a quasi-ballistic missile. It is absolutely impossible to hit small mobile targets with an unguided missile.
Its project range is about 1800 miles, but of course they don't need THAT far away. That is one of the reasons why its accuracy remains very disputable and unclear. DF-21 was proposed as a weapon against aircraft carriers, but they are always accompanied by an escort which means multiple targets for the missile and at the same time strengthened anti-air defence. I doubt the Chinese would deliver salvo fire with ballistic missiles against one ship. So, in case if missile launch is detected immediatly and all counter-measures (such as active maneuvers) are undertaken on time, the possibility of being hit tends towards zero.
Her (DF-21) main advantage over a cruise anti-ship missile is speed. It makes it harder to shoot it down, but doesn't make it impossible.
 
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Just throwing an idea...

What if they equip these "useless" missiles with useless junk to jam the counter-measures. Like small metal papers to jam radars and such...

Or maybe if they throw plenty of these at their target. As a guided missile will be jammed and that his chances of passing the ECM and counter-measures is ridiculous, maybe that an unguided missile have better chances, as his chances of success are based on the ability of the people firing them.

And to the poster:
Wow? big China is mightier than small Taiwan? Omg, I'm impressed... They better start eating Chinese food right now to get used to it...

Bah... Give Taiwai to China and stop whining...
 
Just throwing an idea...

What if they equip these "useless" missiles with useless junk to jam the counter-measures. Like small metal papers to jam radars and such...

Or maybe if they throw plenty of these at their target. As a guided missile will be jammed and that his chances of passing the ECM and counter-measures is ridiculous, maybe that an unguided missile have better chances, as his chances of success are based on the ability of the people firing them.
Emm.. i think you're mixing it all up.

First of all it is unknown which exact guidance system is used on the final trajectory of DF-21.

Second, if they use radar homing (like the original missile), chaff (small metal papers) can jam their own missiles. If they use TV homing, laser homing or smth else, chaff won't help. But as far as i know China does not have the needed ammount of space satellites for that.

There are only two ways to prevent DF-21 from hitting your ship: active smart manoeuvring and strenghtened anti-air defence armament like RIM-161.
 
I know that I'm way over my head with this stuff... But I thought that these missiles were unguided ballistic missiles, like missile artillety, big rockets...

If they had enough chaff and flares to jam the automatic counter-measures of a plane carrier, they could eventually hit it with unguided rockets as it's a big target.

That's my idea. But well, I guess he Chinese have much better tactics to deal with carriers.
 
Unguided missiles can't be used against ships, even aircraft carriers. Anti-ship missiles can only be guided. If you use unguided missiles against any mobile target on the ground, you have to fire a score of them (MLR systems, ground-attack aircrafts, etc). If you use them in the ocean, the ammount of missiles you will need is uncountable.

If the DF-21 missile uses radar homing, it can be misled by chaff like any other missile.
 
I think that nothing is impossible.

Terrorists managed to take control of 4 airplanes the 9/11. And they did hit their targets. 3 out of 4.

When it comes to military events where surprise is important, they will try to attack you where you think it's impossible.

Didnt the German cross some "impossible" terrains to invade France?

I know that aircraft carriers are extremely well defended. But once they know their positions and their speed. Even artillery shells can hit them.
And I dont think that their defenses can stop a barrage of artillery shells... And I think that once you hit a ship, his ability to defend himself will drop significantly...

Tanks are supposed to be hard or even impossible to kill with lowtech weapons, but once you disable it's tracks, you can destroy it with basic artillery.

And the loss of one carrier would be a huge event. A huge loss for any power in the world.
 
I think that nothing is impossible.

Terrorists managed to take control of 4 airplanes the 9/11. And they did hit their targets. 3 out of 4.
The aircrafts were guided. By people.

When it comes to military events where surprise is important, they will try to attack you where you think it's impossible.

Didnt the German cross some "impossible" terrains to invade France?

I know that aircraft carriers are extremely well defended. But once they know their positions and their speed. Even artillery shells can hit them.
And I dont think that their defenses can stop a barrage of artillery shells... And I think that once you hit a ship, his ability to defend himself will drop significantly...
The defense lines in France were called impossible to overcome from ideological considerations. Of course, that was purely a matter of military talent and superiority in men and equipment. We are talking about a bit different meaning of 'impossiblity': inexcusably low chances.

Naval artillery shells can hit a carrier, but that is naval warfare now. Once you manage to hit a ship with artillery shells and damage it, there won't be need in using unguided missiles or expensive and complex ballistic missile systems to finish it off, since there are plenty of more reliable and well-tried methods of anti-carriers warfare: submarines, aircrafts, etc.

If a 300-meters carrier has lost its way and is drifting, if you know its most exact coordinates, you can in theory strike it with DF-21. And there will still be a high chance that you miss and your missile just falls into water. Or you can send a sub and destroy it with a single torpedo.
 
Well, there is men in submarines, aircraft and navy ships...

When you use missiles, all you can lose is the price of these missiles. You can send men to do the job, but if they fail, they wont come back.

And I dont see how missiles from aircrafts could have more success than ballistic missiles. Are they not using the same technology?
 
And I dont see how missiles from aircrafts could have more success than ballistic missiles. Are they not using the same technology?
Guidance technology? Tehcnically, yes, again if this particular ballistic missile uses radar homing. But on practice, DF-21 speed is several times higher than.. say Harpoon or Yakhont or Kh-35 cruise missiles speed, which means less room for manoeuvres. Cruise missiles are way more accurate due to their lower speed and flat trajectory.

This technology is very perspective but not effective as the case stands today. The most advanced short-range (less than 500 km) quasi-ballistic missiles today have circular error probable of 30 meters. Subscribed range of DF-21 is 3000 kilometers, so it's very hard to speak about such accuracy that can allow to hit a ship. The only ballistic or quasi-ballistic missile that can successfuly hit carriers at the present time is the one with nuclear warhead on it.
 
Yeah sure, destroy half of the planet... Way to get these over-protected carriers... haha...
Well, no need in using 10Mt yields of course, but nuclear weapons used to be one of the options in fighting against carriers during cold war.
 
According to a U.S. Naval Institutereport, the missile has range of 2000 kilometers (approximately 1,240 miles) and can reach an aircraft carrier or any other surface ship within 12 minutes at that range.

The range of the modified Dong Feng 21 missile is significant in that it covers the areas that are likely hot zones for future confrontations between U.S. and Chinese surface forces.

The size of the missile enables it to carry a warhead big enough to inflict significant damage on a large vessel, providing the Chinese the capability of destroying a U.S. supercarrier in one strike.

USNI also reports that the missile employs a complex guidance system, low radar signature and a maneuverability that makes its flight path unpredictable, the odds that it can evade tracking systems to reach its target are increased. It is estimated that the missile can travel at mach 10 and reach its maximum range of 2000km in less than 12 minutes.

Supporting the missile is a network of satellites, radar and unmanned aerial vehicles that can locate U.S. ships and then guide the weapon, enabling it to hit moving targets.

While the ASBM has been a topic of discussion within national defense circles for quite some time, the fact that information is now coming from Chinese sources indicates that the weapon system is operational. The Chinese rarely mention weapons projects unless they are well beyond the test stages.

If operational as is believed, the system marks the first time a ballistic missile has been successfully developed to attack vessels at sea. Ships currently have no defense against a ballistic missile attack.
 
Supporting the missile is a network of satellites, radar and unmanned aerial vehicles that can locate U.S. ships and then guide the weapon, enabling it to hit moving targets.
Ah, UAVs, hegh! UAV against anti-air defense systems an embarked squadron? Right...
 
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