Middle-east power - Page 3




 
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September 4th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Egypt:
Check on Turkey and Iran in following ranking.
Egyptian military is simply unknown in the world, in contrast to Turkey or Iran, this already says a lot.

Israel:
Iraelie army is way too much hyped. In an all-out war against Iran (no nuke), Israel has no chance at all (without USA support), if these 2 countries are on border with each other, Iran would occupy Israel very soon. Problem of Israel is that it is too small.


Military expenditures - dollar figure 2003
Data source: 2003 CIA World Factbook

1 United States $ 276,700,000,000
2 China $ 55,910,000,000
3 France $ 46,500,000,000
4 Japan $ 39,520,000,000
5 Germany $ 38,800,000,000
6 United Kingdom $ 31,700,000,000
7 Italy $ 20,200,000,000
8 Saudi Arabia $ 18,300,000,000
9 Brazil $ 13,408,000,000
10 Korea, South $ 13,094,300,000
11 India $ 11,520,000,000
12 Australia $ 11,390,000,000
13 Iran $ 9,700,000,000
14 Israel $ 8,970,000,000
15 Spain $ 8,600,000,000
16 Turkey $ 8,100,000,000
17 Canada $ 7,861,000,000
18 Taiwan $ 7,574,000,000
19 Netherlands $ 6,500,000,000
20 Greece $ 6,120,000,000
21 Korea, North $ 5,217,400,000
22 Singapore $ 4,470,000,000
23 Sweden $ 4,395,000,000
24 Argentina $ 4,300,000,000
25 Egypt $ 4,040,000,000

http://www.photius.com/rankings/mili...re_2003_0.html
September 4th, 2004  
yurry
 
Quote:
Iraelie army is way too much hyped. In an all-out war against Iran (no nuke), Israel has no chance at all (without USA support), if these 2 countries are on border with each other, Iran would occupy Israel very soon. Problem of Israel is that it is too small.
Iran couldn't defeat Iraq, Iraq (was part of the 1973 coalition) couldn't defeat Israel so you see where I'm going with these. And also if a coalition of 12 countries could not defeat Israel in 1973 in a suprise attack I don't think only Iran can. And also what can they do drop paratroops into Tel-Aviv?!? Even if Iran had any plans against Israel, now Iraq stands as a wedge betwen Israel and Iran so no attack here.
September 4th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yurry
Quote:
Iraelie army is way too much hyped. In an all-out war against Iran (no nuke), Israel has no chance at all (without USA support), if these 2 countries are on border with each other, Iran would occupy Israel very soon. Problem of Israel is that it is too small.
Iran couldn't defeat Iraq, Iraq (was part of the 1973 coalition) couldn't defeat Israel so you see where I'm going with these. And also if a coalition of 12 countries could not defeat Israel in 1973 in a suprise attack I don't think only Iran can. And also what can they do drop paratroops into Tel-Aviv?!? Even if Iran had any plans against Israel, now Iraq stands as a wedge betwen Israel and Iran so no attack here.
Please note what I said: IF Israel and Iran are located on border and Israel must fight alone without USA support, then Iran would conquer Israel very soon.

Also, 1973 is 30 years ago, you can't compare a army of 30 years ago with now. If you mention the 8 years Iraq/Iran war, then at that time almost ALL world was supporting Iraq, Iran was basically alone, yet Iraq couldn't defeat Iran.

Of course Israel has better weapons than Iran has, but the marge is not that high. Just imagine an army of 70 million men's country vs a a couple of million men's country, both with reasonably well equiped armies. Israel is TOO small to defend too long time. Isael is good at offensive for a short time, but cannot last long, their resources for war are too limited (if without USA support).
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September 4th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Its a good point, but more money spent doesn't ensure you are getting more. The main reason I would rank Iran easily in the top 5 militaries in the middle east is that they have a much larger population than anyone else. They also have more diverse and plentiful natural resources.

The biggest reason I consider Israel and Turkey more powerful than anyone else ... Well in Israel's case, they have been underestimated repeatedly. They have been gang tackled by every nation that borders them and some that did not, and come out on top. The combined military might that has been thrown at them would outrank that of Iran comparatively (making adjustment for time period, etc). The overall level of readiness in Israel is unsurpassed. I tend not to bet against a nation that repeatedly survives against impossible odds. I can certainly follow what you're saying of course.
September 5th, 2004  
GuyontheRight
 
FlyingFrog,
Israel, In a defensive situation, could wipe Iran's butt. Iran's Air Force would be desotyed by the superior air defense capabilities of Israel, and Iran's Army, aside from It's revolutionary Gaurd, are little better then conscripts. I see It impossible that you could say Iran Is greater In military streagth then Israel.
September 5th, 2004  
Big_Z
 
 
Training goes a long way.....
September 5th, 2004  
Shadowalker
 
 
Israel has to be the most powerful due to its equipment being the mostb up to date in the region, following that i would say it is close between turkey and egypt as they both have up to date weapons as well as older less advanced weaponary. iran has older western technology and newer russian technology but as the war in iraq has shown the t-72 is vulnerable and that is there most up to date tank and there airforce despite having F-4s and F-14s they have not had the support from the US since the government was overthrown.

1)Israel
2)Saudi Arabia
3)Egypt
4)Turkey
5)Iran
September 5th, 2004  
SHERMAN
 
 
Flyingfrog:

Israel is a small country with a large military. We never recieved direct military help from the US. Lets compare Israel and Iran:

This is from Fighting Forces- An Illustrated Anatomy of the World's Great Armies by Richard Bennett.This is 2002 Publication, preetey accurate...

Iran(page 94-99):

"The current strength of the Iranian army is 325000, with some 240000 personnel available for combat dusty...Still nowhere neatr having genuine war fighting capability"

"Armor-
500 T54/55/Type-59
75 T62
140 Chieftain 3/5
150 M47/48
150 M60"

(Sherman insert-To this you should add a few dozen Zulfiqar tanks)....


It also says:
"The Iranian army faces a troubled future...remains a force with just sufficiant capabilty to defend it's natinal borders..."

Israel(pages106-115)

The writer describes the problems facing the Israeli Defence Forces and then writes:
"However, even taking all these factors into account, the Israeli army still largely remains a cohesive, well-trained, and highly motivated force, capable of dominating any potential Middle Eastern battlefield...A strike force still unmatched by any possible opponent"

"The Israeli army is 130000 strong(Sherman insert: I believe it is 200000, but oh well.), but can mobilize a further 400000(Insert:I think about 500000) trained reseves within a matter of days, virtually all of whom are availale for combat duties"

"Armor:
800 Centurion
300 M48A5
300 M60A1
600 M60A3
400 Magach 7
200 Ti-67
100 T-62
1200- Merkava 1/2/3 MBTs"

(Sherman insert- The Centurions are gone, but have been replaced by the Merkava tanks. The M48/60 are all upgraded to ther superior Magach 7 and 6B. The Ti-67 and T62 tanks are gone, also replaced by Merkava and Magach)


As to ari-foces, lets just compare hardware:

Iran-

Mainly Chinese Mig 19 and 21 Copies. Some F4s. Su25 and Su 24. Very few( less than 2 dozen) F14s.
Most advanced Fighter: Mig 29(very few in service)
Most Advanced Attack Helicopter: AH1 Cobra(100 in service)

Israel:
Mainly F16s. Many F15s. A few F4 and A4 remain in service, but upgraded.
F15I and F16I, said to be some of the most advanced in service world-wide.
Most advanced Fighter:F15(a few dozen in service)
Most advanced Attack Helicopter: AH-64(a few dozen in service)
September 5th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
SHERMAN,

Thanks for the info you supplied.

Secondly, I have a lot of respect for Israeli military and people. Don't get me wrong, Israeli's enjoy very high respect among public in China, you people living in such a dangerous place yet you managed to stand there firmly among all the enemies.

Now back to topic:
Of course Israeli military is no doubt the BEST quality army in Middle East.
What I said is if without USA support, and Iran is located on your border, then Iran can "occupy" Israel very soon, I mean Israel will have no chance to hold very long and eventually lose the war.

The real problems facing Israel IMO:
1. The country size is too too small. Population too small.
2. U have no resource to support the a long going war.
3. You do have good tanks and many of them, but with these tanks you can hardly push into Iran, Iran is simply too large for a small force of Israel to conquer. Since this is no more time of Chenghis Khan, you cannot rush your tanks into Iran and just kill every people, so you have to have a lot of people occupying a city and go further to conqure next city, but you don't have this manpower.
4. U do have very good fighter jets. This will be the biggest headache for Iranians. But Iran does have deadly missiles, how about they destroy your airfields with thousands of missiles? No worry, I talk about missiles in point 5.
5. Check the Ranking I supplied before, Iran does have a big defence budget, even bigger than that of Israel, they have a lot of oil too, money for them is not a issue in fact. If we say the war btw Israel and Iran happens after 10 years, Iran then has plenty of time and money to prepare the war: They can buy enough jets from Russia (Su-series) and China (J10), they can buy very advanced missiles from them too, tanks no problem, Russian T90, Chinese T98, all on offer, Most importanly, Iran is making their own missiles and tanks too. Actually, the most important weapon against a small nation like Israel is: Missiles. With that much of money, Iran can get thousands of deadly missiles within 10 years without problem at all.

Since I think Iran is growing fast in military, and they have big oil=money, and they are a very big country, a very big and fannatic population, I think God stands on their site, Time stands on their side too.

BTW, Chinese twin-seats J10:
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10_1.jpg
September 5th, 2004  
SHERMAN
 
 
I hope China dosent sell the J-10 to Iran, since it is obviously the result of copying or cooperation with Israels "Lavi" project. As to the Budget thing...Well, Its true that they have alot of money, but they have a huge gap to close. If they spend all that money on hardware, their training will remain poor. Their army is still not fully mechanized....IMHO even if they do buy a lot of hardware, they cant match USA hardware with russian or chinese hardware, at least for now. Plust the ammount of modifications and self-production done by Israel I believe we will remain technologicaly superior in the near future. As to the IDF being too small, I rweally dont get that. within 48 houres the IDf can become 500000-700000 man strong, with 4/5 of these in combat duty at least. Iraq was conquered twice by a force not bigger than that. Israel dosent need to occupy Iran to win a war. We can simply destroy the Irany army in 2-3 weeks of combat, and than retreat, as we have no use for Iranian or any other land....As to the missile problem, they can build that manymissiles, the noubers are greatly exagerated. But, they can build houndreds of them. Very well. The Israel "Arrow" is the first operational Anti-Ballistic-Missile-System, and we have ballistic missile of our own.