Legalize soft-drugs yes or no.

[Whispering Death]

Here's the deal, so far as justice is concerned. It is philosophically unjust to punnish guys who just smoke pot in their homes with a buddy or two. It has been proven 100% fale to say that most people who do pot are violent drug offenders. And our current drug policies have only led to the EXACT WRONG kind of people attaining great wealth through gang and maffia type businesses.

Legalizing and regulating marijuana and treating addicts like we do alchoholics is the best path to take.

 

[bulldogg]

Well 03, at least we agree that we disagree. I know that on this topic I might be naieve, and your world and mine differ greatly in this respect. So enough said.
I do however miss some feedback on the stats that Bulldogg gave. They explain some increases he gave in drug abuse, but they don't make Holland into some pool of decay.

I think I am being confused with Chief Bones perhaps??

 

[Ted]

Sorry Bulldogg, you're absolutely right. I was referring to Chief's article....

 

[03USMC]

Here's the deal, so far as justice is concerned. It is philosophically unjust to punnish guys who just smoke pot in their homes with a buddy or two. It has been proven 100% fale to say that most people who do pot are violent drug offenders. And our current drug policies have only led to the EXACT WRONG kind of people attaining great wealth through gang and maffia type businesses.

Legalizing and regulating marijuana and treating addicts like we do alchoholics is the best path to take.

Okay Cheech, nobody said most pot heads were violent offenders or that any study had been done to prove they were. Reread the posts. However I did say that based on my experiance most property crimes were commited by narcotics offenders to include Pot Smokers.

Lemme clue ya in on criminals.The ones that your so sure have been created by the War on Drugs or Drug laws that have been enacted. Criminals really don't care how they make their money as long as they make it. Organized Crime won't go away if you legalize dope. He** small time dime bag ditch weed dealers won't go away, they'll switch product. And continue in their criminal enterprise because thats what they do it's their job.

You can wax philosophic all you care to. You can blame the man and the system for creating criminals but the problem remains. They knew it was illegal to possess Marijuana so they choose to ignore the law....oopps.

 

[Ted]

Lemme clue ya in on criminals.The ones that your so sure have been created by the War on Drugs or Drug laws that have been enacted. Criminals really don't care how they make their money as long as they make it. Organized Crime won't go away if you legalize dope. He** small time dime bag ditch weed dealers won't go away, they'll switch product. And continue in their criminal enterprise because thats what they do it's their job.

This is exactly what I mean 03. I reckon ( I might be wrong, that's why I started this thread) that if you could cut back on this piece of organised crime, you'll have more resources for "heavier" crimes. This little piece becomes incorporated into the system and the pot heads need not buy it illegally.
Hence less search & destroy on them (why should you if it were legal) and all the more on the others. I know that the dual users of more then 1 drug are not included. But the harmless home-smoker is not the issue anymore.

Maybe it is all bogus, because one can't make a difference between the harmless hobby user and the criminal one. Then all goes down the drain!

 

[Marinerhodes]

From what I have seen and read (it is not much) I don't see the law going after the "hobby user" or the "casual smoker". I see them maybe using these people as an avenue to get to those that deal in larger quantities or to get to those that may deal in the hard drugs. A little fish in a big pond generally indicates a big fish somewhere else.

So you legalize pot. Less crime per capita where drugs are concerned right? Somehow I am not assured of this. Sure you will have fewer arrests because pot is now legal. But I can also see the crime rate go up (as was stated above) because then you have more people wanting to get high and many will not have the funds to do so. There is a large potential for many side effects if controlled substances (drugs) are legelized.

This idea to legalize drugs has so many flaws and holes in it that makes it debatable for years to come. Maybe that is one reason why they just leave the law as-is.

By the way I have a quick question, Alchohol is a large cause of death in many different scenarios. Now introduce soft drugs onto the scene. (That is if the legel age is the saem as alchohol). Imagine how many more accidents and fatalities will occur to people doing dumb crap that they would not normally do.

Not to mention the fact that anyone can buy from anyone and say they got it at the corner market. Thus circumventing the FDA approved source(s). Then yu are back to the same problem..they can maybe get it cheaper from the corner drug dealer than they can the store. Just a few things to think on.

 

[Missileer]

Alcohol is bad enough, why introduce more chemicals to kill brain cells?

 

[Marinerhodes]

Alcohol is bad enough, why introduce more chemicals to legally kill brain cells?

Note the change.


One marijuana cigarette (staying away from all the colorful names) has as many carcinogens and other nasty stuff as an entire pack of cigarettes. So if you think smoking pot is harmless and has no adverse effects on your health you are sadly mistaken. You may not feel the effect, like a smoker does that smokes a pack a day and wakes up hacking and coughing evey morning (yes personal experience), but they are there.

 

[Ted]

Alcohol is bad enough, why introduce more chemicals to kill brain cells?

Because the brains will be killed regardless whether it is legal or illegal. But my starting point was that the recreational pot smoker is no threat to society. A lot of money could be saved if this was legal. Over the course of this thread it became clear that it greatly depends on what society we talk about. Legalizing in Holland will totally different then in the States. IMO it shouldn't increase the useage; it is available now so why don't you use it. Solely because it is illegal? Didn't think so...... So why start smoking because it is legal? Sure the will be an initial wave of experimentors, but once done they did that been there. They will not have the negative effects of the repetative user.......

 

[Rabs]

Because the brains will be killed regardless whether it is legal or illegal. But my starting point was that the recreational pot smoker is no threat to society.

But see pot is addiciting, so how long does a recreational pot smoker stay that way. The answer is not very long.

I base this on being an American high school student.

 

[Missileer]

Ted,
Feeling good is addictive. Now, I'm not talking about getting falling down drunk or stoned but just a buzz. I don't think that you can argue that everyone likes a nice happy outlook on the world and dope is a quick fix. That said, there are people who are more susceptible to addictive behavior than others. Same goes for alcohol, food, tobacco, adrenalin highs, and on and on. These are the ones who would be hurt more by legal dope, just like the chain smoker. I quit smoking by just not buying any more cigarettes. A beloved Brother-in-Law didn't fare so well, he died of lung cancer which caused a stroke and in turn, a heart attack. I've never seen a more addicted person in my life. It was pathetic watching him try to quit just to start right back. The Psychologists gave it a name of an "addictive personality." There's no excuse for using unprescribed dope.

 

[Whispering Death]

But see pot is addiciting, so how long does a recreational pot smoker stay that way. The answer is not very long.

I base this on being an American high school student.

I say you are insanely wrong.

I base this on being an American college student in a campus of wealthy students with lots of time on their hands and nothing to do in this city.

I don't speak out of ignorance at all. I'm a full time college student and pay the rent by delivering pizzas. My store delivers pizza to the worst part of this city. One motel we deliver to we refer to as "The Opium Den" and it is a haven for drug sales/use and prostitution that the police just basically turn a blind eye to. We've had two drivers robbed within 2 blocks of that place. I've delivered there multiple times, it's not pretty and it isn't a fun run to go on.

I've also had 2 friends arrested with pot on them and another buddy of mine convicted of having a "dealer's ammount" of shrooms. All three of them are 3.5+ GPA students and like to cut loose and have some fun on the weekends. They're all 3 great guys to hang out with and are going to be running big companies with families one day yet here they are being streesed out facing 4+ years of jail time being prosecuted like underworld criminals.

 

[Marinerhodes]

Because the brains will be killed regardless whether it is legal or illegal. But my starting point was that the recreational pot smoker is no threat to society. A lot of money could be saved if this was legal. Over the course of this thread it became clear that it greatly depends on what society we talk about. Legalizing in Holland will totally different then in the States. IMO it shouldn't increase the useage; it is available now so why don't you use it. Solely because it is illegal? Didn't think so...... So why start smoking because it is legal? Sure the will be an initial wave of experimentors, but once done they did that been there. They will not have the negative effects of the repetative user.......

Ding ding ding we have a winner!!

Many people abide by the law because it is the right thing to do. They do not wish to hurt themselves or their loved ones by breaking the law and suffering the consequences. Look at WD's story about his friends. Now, take that to an extreme and imagine it is legal and they, through negligence or whatever, hurt or killed someone? Now they face more than 4+ years in prison.

It WILL increase the overall useage if it becomes legal, if you do not believe that then consider this: Alchohol prohibition decreased the overall useage until it became legal, then it increased to what it was before and probably even more. (No hard facts to back it up. Just an opinion.)

Legalizing any soft drug is not going to make the problems of illegal drug usage or availability go away. You will still have dealers trying to get by the FDA or any government imposed regulations. In my opinion it will just give the society (any society) a new set of problems to deal with in addition to the old problems.

 

[Ted]

You might have a point there M. but we don't know. I, for one, am in favour of trying this with the possibilities of returning to the current status. I understand that "the light-switch" approach is not the best way to go. First you test it in some cities (that is how we do it overhere... as a matter of fact we distributed free methadon to heroin addicts. The petty theft crime rated plummeted down. You answer for yourself if you think this is right or wrong.) If things go well you impose it nation wide.

 

[Whispering Death]

No Marinerhodes, you have that backwards. There will always be the problem of people becomming addicted to drugs, illiegalizing them only causes more problems for us.

Marinerhodes, there is a huge difference between drinking some beers while watching monday night football and crashing your car drunk off your ass into a schoolbus. There is a huge difference between guys who just smoke pot while watching Comedy Central and someone who does something under the influence and hurt or killed someone. They would deserve to be looking at more than 4 years in prison for that.

If I had my way I would legalize and regulate marijuana right off the bat. But apply harsh pennalties for doing illiegal things under the influence i.e. driving or robbery.

Then I would decriminalize hard drugs. Not a single person has ever thought to themselves "man, I could really go for being addicted to heroin... but I might go to jail." I would have mandatory treatment programs setup for people who are caught with hard drugs but I wouldn't make it a crime. I would then heavily step up pennalties against those who traffic and sell hard drugs. Not "dealer's dose" law BS where you've got a guy with a stash of shrooms in his apartment and he's prosecuted as a drug dealer. I mean the people who are convicted of selling and smuggling heroin into America, those guy would get very very long prison sentences.

So the weekend pot smoker doesn't have to have a heart attack just to relax.
The individual hard drug user gets treatment.
Those who try to get Americans addited to crack cocaine and heroin get put in jail where they belong.

 

[Marinerhodes]

No Marinerhodes, you have that backwards. There will always be the problem of people becomming addicted to drugs, illiegalizing them only causes more problems for us.

Marinerhodes, there is a huge difference between drinking some beers while watching monday night football and crashing your car drunk off your ass into a schoolbus. There is a huge difference between guys who just smoke pot while watching Comedy Central and someone who does something under the influence and hurt or killed someone. They would deserve to be looking at more than 4 years in prison for that.

If I had my way I would legalize and regulate marijuana right off the bat. But apply harsh pennalties for doing illiegal things under the influence i.e. driving or robbery.

Then I would decriminalize hard drugs. Not a single person has ever thought to themselves "man, I could really go for being addicted to heroin... but I might go to jail." I would have mandatory treatment programs setup for people who are caught with hard drugs but I wouldn't make it a crime. I would then heavily step up pennalties against those who traffic and sell hard drugs. Not "dealer's dose" law BS where you've got a guy with a stash of shrooms in his apartment and he's prosecuted as a drug dealer. I mean the people who are convicted of selling and smuggling heroin into America, those guy would get very very long prison sentences.

So the weekend pot smoker doesn't have to have a heart attack just to relax.
The individual hard drug user gets treatment.
Those who try to get Americans addited to crack cocaine and heroin get put in jail where they belong.

But they are already illegal and we have these problems. Legalizing them only makes it more so of a problem. Look at the last three statements you made.

You are trying to tell me the weekend pot smoker is not as likely as a weekend beer drinker to go to the corner store and buy munchies/booze etc etc? Most times in a vehicle.

Who is going to pay for this 'hard drug user treatments'? There are already free programs out there but most people will not avail themselves of it. "You can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink". Making a person go to these programs will not automatically make them better. Remember, you also have to use the taxes to moderate, regulate, mandate, etc any and all areas, if drugs are legalized. If this is the case then it means some pretty high taxes on soft drugs to pay for these government services. This will likely lead to the same person, wanting to try it for the first time, going to their corner dealer, who may or may not have a 'pure' supply. Which in turn has problems all it's own...again.

Cocaine and other drugs are already illegal and those people distributing are already being put in jail etc etc when they can be found and caught. Of course the three strike rule is in effect in some states (all?). So if you get caught three times breaking the law you go to jail for a very very long time.

Many people are responsible, but many are also lazy. The "oh I just had one or two (hits/beers) I am good to drive" dont matter if your reflexes are impinged upon by an intoxicating substance. One accident involving drugs or alchohol with you at fault (or not) and you can kiss your butt goodbye. Legalizing soft drugs, I can see the current numbers skyrocketing.

I am basing my opinion(s) on the belief that there will be more people becoming addicted and chasing that high and moving on to other drugs than if drugs are not legalized.

You have many people in 'high-stress' jobs that want to unwind at the end of the day. Then they may want to start carrying that over to work. With soft drugs or hard drugs you can not always tell if your Air Traffic Controller is stoned out of his mind as easily as you can if he is drunk or hungover badly. But if you legalize soft drugs you will likely be facing this very same problem, but on a larger more widespread scale. Too many things can go wrong.

However, I am an extremist. I always look at worse case scenarios while hoping for the best. I see this as a worse case scenario that will eventually deteriorate. We will go back to drugs being illegal to save the government and taxpayers money and lives as well.

Remember, my pursuit of happiness and freedoms also depends on your ability to do the right thing. If you get out driving, or otherwise, under the influence of drugs or alchohol and hurt me or mine, then you severely curtail or halt that pursuit. So, drugs being illegal is actually upholding the law of the land so to speak. Even if in a round-a-bout way.

Now if only we could impose more mandatory severe penalties on drunk drivers or DUI offenders.

P.S. Yes, I know my thoughts are scattered more so than usual. I just woke up, New Year's resolution to stop smoking, and not even halfway through my first cup of coffee.

 

[deerslayer]

from a moral standpoint.... hay-uhl naw....

I could see putting a huge sin tax of marijuana, but hey, it wouldn't do us too much good and would only cause further enforcement problems. Plus with legal hard and soft drugs running rampant all over the place, guess whose hands it'll end up in? CRIMINALS. Bad enough to be shivved by a criminal, worse to be shivved by a criminal who's stoned on something. ANd yes, mandatory rehabilitation is a great idea.

 

[Marinerhodes]

from a moral standpoint.... hay-uhl naw....

I could see putting a huge sin tax of marijuana, but hey, it wouldn't do us too much good and would only cause further enforcement problems. Plus with legal hard and soft drugs running rampant all over the place, guess whose hands it'll end up in? CRIMINALS. Bad enough to be shivved by a criminal, worse to be shivved by a criminal who's stoned on something. ANd yes, mandatory rehabilitation is a great idea.

I have said it before, you can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. Mandatory rehab is a good idea in theory, in practice it does no good if the person being rehabilitated does not wish to be rehabilitated.

 

[Ted]

from a moral standpoint.... hay-uhl naw....

I could see putting a huge sin tax of marijuana, but hey, it wouldn't do us too much good and would only cause further enforcement problems. Plus with legal hard and soft drugs running rampant all over the place, guess whose hands it'll end up in? CRIMINALS. Bad enough to be shivved by a criminal, worse to be shivved by a criminal who's stoned on something. ANd yes, mandatory rehabilitation is a great idea.

Who judges what is a sin and what isn't? Your sin might be my normal daily routine and I'm generally considered a good guy overhere.

Why would you need to enforce is once it is legal? I never said that running rampant should be made legal, regardless of being stoned or not. Same goes for being shivved (whatever that might be ).

And last but not least: your morals might not be mine? So my moral standpoint allows for legalization. Much of the crimes mentioned here are not included.

 

[Missileer]

And last but not least: your morals might not be mine? So my moral standpoint allows for legalization. Much of the crimes mentioned here are not included.

Morals are not the whole issue, otherwise pedophilia wouldn't be a crime. Laws aren't made and enforced totally on how moral, immoral, or ammoral an act is. Laws take into consideration the benefits and danger to society. If twenty people took dope, they could be managed, if everyone in the country or world took dope, there would mass destruction. How would you like to board a 747 and see the pilot light up a joint? Not to mention tens of millions of automobile drivers.