The Last Word

bulldogg

Milforum's Bouncer
Foregrounding...
SOME OF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT NEARLY EVERY FAMILY IN AMERICA WAS GROSSLY AFFECTED BY WW II . MOST OF YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE RATIONING OF MEAT, SHOES, GASOLINE, AND SUGAR. NO TIRES FOR OUR AUTOMOBILES, AND A SPEED LIMIT OF 35 MILES AN HOUR ON THE ROAD, NOT TO MENTION, NO NEW AUTOMOBILES. READ THIS AND THINK ABOUT HOW WE WOULD REACT TO BEING TAKEN OVER BY FOREIGNERS IN 2007.

Historical Significance

Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat . The Nazis had sunk more than 400 British ships in their convoys between England and America taking food and war materials .

At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war .

Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 , and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the f ollowing day on Germany , who had not yet attacked us . It was a dicey thing . We had few allies .

France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly aligned itself with its German occupiers . Germany was certainly not an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and controlling all of Asia.

Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico , as launching pads to get into the United States over our northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe.

America 's only allies then were England , Ireland , Scotland , Canada , Australia , and Russia . That was about it All of Europe, from Norway to Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under the Nazi heel

The US was certainly not prepared for war. The US had drastically downgraded most of its military forces after WW I because of the depression, so that at the outbreak of WW II, Army units were training with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks A huge chunk of our Navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.

Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England (that was actually the property of Belgium ) given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact).

Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day just to prove they could .

Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of staggering losses and the near decimation of its Royal Air Fo rce in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later. Hitler, first turned his attention to Russia, in the late summer of 1940 at a time when England was on the verge of collapse.

Ironically, Russia saved America 's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany .

Russia lost something like 24,000,000 people i n the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone . . 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000 soldiers

Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire war effort against the Brits, then America. If that had happened, the Nazis could possibly have won the war .

All of this has been brought out to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. Now, we find ourselves at another one of those key moments in history.

There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants, and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world .

The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, ar e basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world. To them, all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated . They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel , and purge the world of Jews . This is their mantra . (goal)

There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation, but it is not yet known which side will win -- the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.

If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US , European, and Asian economies.

The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis. Do you want gas in your car? Do you want heating oil next winter? Do you want the dollar to be worth anything? You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away. A moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i . e . , the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We can't do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at a time and place of our choosing . . . . . . . . in Iraq . Not in New York , not in London , or Paris or Berlin , but in Iraq , where we are doing two important things.
 
(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades Saddam is a terrorist! & nbsp; Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, responsible for the deaths of probably more than a 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000 Iranians .

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed .

WW II, the war with the Japanese and German Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before the US joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own a gain . a 27 year war.

WW II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars. WW II cost America more than 400,000 soldiers killed in act ion, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.

The Iraq war has, so far, cost the United States about $160,000,000,000, which is roughly what the 9/11 terrorist attack cost New York. It has also cost about 3,000 American lives, which is roughly equivilant to lives that the Jihad killed (within the United States) in the 9/11 terrorist attack .

The cost of not fighting and winning WW II would have been unimaginably greater -- a world dominated by Japanese Imperialism and German Nazism .

This is not a 60-Minutes TV show, or a 2-hour movie in which everything comes out okay . The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. It always has been, and probably always will be .

The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore it .

If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq , then we have an ally, like England , in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates to conquer the world.

The Iraq War is merely another battle in this ancient and never ending war. Now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless some body prevents them from getting them.

We have four options:

1 . We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

2 . We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran 's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

3 . We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East now; in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.

OR

4 . We can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and possibly most of the rest of Europe. It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.

If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.

The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.

Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win . The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them .

Remember, perspective is every thing, and America 's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989; forty-two years!

Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany !

World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan . World War II resulted in the death of more than 50,000,000 people, maybe more than 100,000,000 people, depending on which estimates you accept.

The US has taken more than 3,000 killed in action in Iraq. The US took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944 , the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism.

In WW II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of the individual battles of WW II lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far

The stakes are at least as high . . A world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . . or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law) .

It's difficult to understand why the average American does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis.

"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America , where it's safe.

Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran , Syria , Iraq , Sudan , North Korea , in the places that really need peace activism the most? I'll tell you why! They would be killed!

The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc . , but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc.

Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Raymond S . Kraft is a writer living in Northern California that has studied the Middle Eastern culture and religion

Enjoy and pass it on.
 
I'd just like to point out there were Peace activists in Iraq.
They were the ones that let Saddam put them around various important instalations in Baghdad. They even got a lot of media coverage.
They never went back to help restore vital infrastructure though!
 
good post

god bless America
.

Good post, BD.

Good Post?
The Poster in question is not old enough to remember World War II.

Allow me enlighten the Board a bit about World War II, from a statistical standpoint, myself being generations removed from World War II.

The United States of America alone had 16 Million people in Uniform serving in the United States Military, and, the Population of the United States of America was half of what it is today at some 132 million people.
The Draft was also instituted in the United States of America during World War II, so everyone was knee deep in it.
Taxes were greatly increased during World War II.

I have heard loud and clear from some circles of late that Draftees are useless and unworthily individuals, and, I have also heard that there are enough people in the United States Military to take care of US Military commitments that the Nation is currently involved in, at the same time, (unlike in World War II where there was no one year and home) that now its 15 Months and out in Iraq (for Army), but, as noted, during World War II ones “Tour” was until they were killed (or Wounded and unable to fight on) or the War was won.

And, also, I’m told that there is no need for Taxes to increased because of the new War in Iraq, so, at no time is World War II ever allowed to be drawn as a comparison with the War in Iraq today, as far as I’m concerned.
 
Last edited:
Hah! As if killing Iraqis is going to stop the real terrorists from coming to the United States and killing innocents. I never understood that insane connection some people make. Iraq = waste of time. Invading Iran = not such a bad idea.

Not that I'm saying Islamofascism is a good thing.
1171467624814.jpg

:rambo:
 
Can't do that... not everyone in the middle east is evil. Some folks are and deserved to be wiped off the face of the Earth. But not everyone....

We are fighting a war to liberate oppressed people and remove the evil from this Earth. WWII was the samething.... The two Atomic Bombings saved more lives then they took. Operation Downfall - the part part planned invasion of japan would have ended in far more lives lost. Both Allied and Japanese.
 
Yeah, I know it's not a good idea to actually nuke the entire Middle East, but I didn't make that picture and it fits pretty nicely with this thread, IMO.
 
.



Good Post?
The Poster in question is not old enough to remember World War II.

Allow me enlighten the Board a bit about World War II, from a statistical standpoint, myself being generations removed from World War II.

The United States of America alone had 16 Million people in Uniform serving in the United States Military, and, the Population of the United States of America was half of what it is today at some 132 million people.
The Draft was also instituted in the United States of America during World War II, so everyone was knee deep in it.
Taxes were greatly increased during World War II.

I have heard loud and clear from some circles of late that Draftees are useless and unworthily individuals, and, I have also heard that there are enough people in the United States Military to take care of US Military commitments that the Nation is currently involved in, at the same time, (unlike in World War II where there was no one year and home) that now its 15 Months and out in Iraq (for Army), but, as noted, during World War II ones “Tour” was until they were killed (or Wounded and unable to fight on) or the War was won.

And, also, I’m told that there is no need for Taxes to increased because of the new War in Iraq, so, at no time is World War II ever allowed to be drawn as a comparison with the War in Iraq today, as far as I’m concerned.

Once could draw comparisons to every war in history to eachother since they are all about ideals...

Are you trying to say that the men and women that are in Iraq and Afghanistan right now are not worth the same credit as the men and woman that fought in WWII, Korea, WWI, the Civil War, The War of 1812, and on and on....
 
Do my Posts bother you?

Not sure I can answer your question but he is correct, the sky is blue because of the Tyndall effect (Rayleigh scattering) by the nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere.

:angel:

 
Yup the human visible spectrum of the electromagnetic radiation that the sun emits has it's short wave lengths scattered across the gases that make up our atmosphere hence the blue it is...Because the short length blue waves are scattered across the sky and the longer red and green wavelengths pass through...

Now when one looks at the sky during sun set you see the wave lengths that are not scattered, the reds ;)

Thank you for tunning in to Donkey Science 101 ;)
 
Our so-called Expert on Middle Eastern Culture and religion Raymond S. Kraft has several wild opinions and errors in his assertions.

America 's only allies then were England , Ireland , Scotland , Canada , Australia , and Russia . That was about it All of Europe, from Norway to Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under the Nazi heel
Hint: One of the earliest participants of the second world war is missing within Mr. Kraft's list of allied nations.

Russia lost something like 24,000,000 people i n the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone . . 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000 soldiers
Casualty count and statistics are largely inaccurate. Moscow was never besieged. The Battle of Moscow was a Soviet Counter-offensive. I assume the writer is referring to the Siege of Leningrad instead.

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades Saddam is a terrorist! & nbsp; Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, responsible for the deaths of probably more than a 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000 Iranians .
The word "undisputed" and Saddam actively supporting terrorist movements is highly disputed therefore they do not share the same sentence. There is still a lack of evidence to prove the Baathist Party's involvement in any listed terrorist organization in the world.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed .
The geo-strategic reference is not making progress. The current government of Iraq is predominantly Shiite, who are friendly to Iran. MEK and the Iranian government have been undoubtedly supporting Shiite factions. Sectarian divide is edging towards civil war.

The Iraq war has, so far, cost the United States about $160,000,000,000, which is roughly what the 9/11 terrorist attack cost New York. It has also cost about 3,000 American lives, which is roughly equivilant to lives that the Jihad killed (within the United States) in the 9/11 terrorist attack .
Correction to Mr. Craft's statement, NYC Comptroller report a 95 Billion USD loss during 9/11. The Iraq reconstruction efforts have been hampered by the lack of internal control over the misuse of reconstruction funds. Many of these credits have been converted to cash making it difficult to trace the transactions and no paper-trail exists to trace the tremendous loss of both Iraq's treasury and the reconstruction funds.

1 . We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.
1. Requires a global consent and much much more important allies such as Russia, China, India, and Pakistan, who all exert tremendous amount of influence over the Islamic State, to join and honor the NPT.

2 . We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran 's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).
2. Once again, it requires an active and powerful alliance. The US will have to persuade China, India, and Russia to join the group.

The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.
There are over 100 answers and thesis of what causes war. Ideology is simply not the only one.

The stakes are at least as high . . A world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . . or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law) .
Many countries in the global south are not concerned about either of these, so therefore you see a rise of countries who are not aligned with either of them. For example Socialist movements are receiving wide popularity in South America and Africa.

Lastly it appears the person did not experience or perhaps researched the Second World War well. The strategy, the type of warfare, the type of enemy, doctrines, tactics, are all very distinct between the Second World War and the War in Iraq.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top