Illegal Immigrants - Page 2




 
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Illegal Immigrants
 
January 31st, 2008  
MontyB
 
 
Illegal Immigrants
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Because someone is in no position to do something about this crime themselves, should not be a reason why they can't complain about it or at least show their support for some other persons discontent.

It is all very well to say, "Well, do something about it at the ballot Box". But if none of those standing for election are going to do anything about it, it's not very sound advice.

I am a firm believer that there is some benefit from raising your voice, in that it sometimes gives other more timid persons the support they are waiting for to raise their voice also. In short, it helps bring forward those of the otherwise silent majority (if they are a majority) and something may be done about it, if they are not in the majority, no harm has been done. It's all part of a widely accepted principle called democracy.
I would agree but there is a huge difference between voicing concern, supporting others of the same opinion and simply stirring up emotion with half truths and innuendo which is all the original article does.

A half way decent/responsible article would have backed their statements with facts and figures it would have directed you toward people and organisations you could have supported or learn't more from this one does little more than stir up emotion and point fingers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I don't think we have any significant number of illegal Muslims in Australia, although we do have a problem with tourists overstaying their visas but they are largely Asians and South Sea Islanders.

As for 700 Brits per day, I feel that it is hugely overstated, as the 2006 yearbook states that we only received 18225 British immigrants for the year, which is almost exactly 50 per day. I don't have the latest yearbook, but i doubt that it has increased by anything vaguely like that amount.

In fact there has been a steady decline of British immigrants since the late 1950s. So I feel that Australia's policies have little influence on the departure of Brits from the UK
Lucky you, we have half of white South Africa living in Auckland at the moment, as far as illegal over stayers go we are in pretty much the same boat you are with Asian and Pacific Islanders making up the bulk of those caught, unfortunately I also think we spend too much time allowing them to justify being here illegally when we should just take the first offence as being paramount and shipping them back to the point of origin.
January 31st, 2008  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I would agree but there is a huge difference between voicing concern, supporting others of the same opinion and simply stirring up emotion with half truths and innuendo which is all the original article does.
Half truths perhaps, the real problem being that the half that is truth, is concern enough to warrant the article. e.g. the fact that US citizens are also criminals and tax evaders is not the question, in fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. The point being made is that the illegals are exacerbating the problem. I'm certain that if we had the problem here in Australia that they have in the USA I would be very concerned too.

Quote:
A half way decent/responsible article would have backed their statements with facts and figures it would have directed you toward people and organisations you could have supported or learnt more from this one does little more than stir up emotion and point fingers.
My impression of the article was that it was at best an opinion piece, not provided as a learned text for detailed analysis.

This in no way makes it improper for people to support that opinion. I know of people who support the All Blacks, and would say that they are the finest Rugby team on earth. Now that is opinion, and there is no reason why others should not be allowed support that opinion, a terrible blasphemy though it is.

Quote:
Lucky you, we have half of white South Africa living in Auckland at the moment, as far as illegal over stayers go we are in pretty much the same boat you are with Asian and Pacific Islanders making up the bulk of those caught, unfortunately I also think we spend too much time allowing them to justify being here illegally when we should just take the first offence as being paramount and shipping them back to the point of origin.
I agree wholeheartedly with the justification part. We have laws that state that persons with criminal records cannot apply for permanent residency, I feel that it should be made more widely known, that if you arrive here illegally, you will have successfully fulfilled that criteria and will be deported to your last country of safe refuge,.... by the first available means. The point being that almost all of our illegals here in Australia are not refugees as defined under the UN criteria. They are merely illegal queue jumpers who whilst being processed, reduce the number of persons being accepted through legal application.
January 31st, 2008  
major liability
 
 
Well, my redneck friend says we should put automated .50BMG machineguns behind a minefield across the whole border and put up signs that say "IF YOU STEP HERE YOU WILL BE DEAD" in Spanish.

Personally, I hope that America will simply stop being such a great place for Mexican illegals. If you have tons of people willing to hire you because you work for less, and all the important signs and services are in Spanish, what will motivate you to adopt our culture?

I say, take down all the signs, don't bother with Spanish translators in school or court, and if you catch an illegal, kick him and his whole family back out. If you catch American businessmen employing them, shut down his whole business. And let the Guardsmen on the border do their job with appropriate force.

Some might think these measures are too extreme. But it's getting ridiculous around here. In the middle of Pawling, New York we have Latino's Laundromat and Latino's Deli, and they look at you funny if you're white and you go there. I don't think the clerk was even fluent in English, because he wouldn't talk to me when I was buying a lighter. My friend got hit by an illegal in a pickup while he was on his bike in the middle of town. Now my state wants to have a ****ing DRIVERS LICENSE for illegals. Funny place.

If they truly love America and want to start a life here rather than getting jobs off the books and sending the cash to Mexico, they can go through the proper channels and immigrate legally.
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Illegal Immigrants
January 31st, 2008  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Half truths perhaps, the real problem being that the half that is truth, is concern enough to warrant the article. e.g. the fact that US citizens are also criminals and tax evaders is not the question, in fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. The point being made is that the illegals are exacerbating the problem. I'm certain that if we had the problem here in Australia that they have in the USA I would be very concerned too.
I agree to a limited extent but it is also a reason why the article is misleading, the reality is that enforcement agencies are still going to be spending time and resources hunting down tax evaders and other criminals and illegals are being caught up in the process. For example I seriously doubt that the IRS is out there tasked with the job of specifically hunting illegal immigrants (although I could be wrong on this) I think it more likely that illegals are found in the course of routine investigation.

No one is saying that the US shouldn't be concerned about illegal immigration I think the argument is more of one that emotive rhetoric and finger pointing is not helping solve the problem.

Quote:
This in no way makes it improper for people to support that opinion. I know of people who support the All Blacks, and would say that they are the finest Rugby team on earth. Now that is opinion, and there is no reason why others should not be allowed support that opinion, a terrible blasphemy though it is.
Yes surprisingly they seem to be the French as most New Zealand based Kiwi's think the All Blacks are an excellent team who have a place amongst the best rugby playing nations such as South Africa, Australia and France, I am sure that some people would add England to the mix I tend not to as they don't really play rugby its more a game of 10 man force back (8 forwards, a half back and a first five to kick the ball out).
January 31st, 2008  
Del Boy
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yes surprisingly they seem to be the French as most New Zealand based Kiwi's think the All Blacks are an excellent team who have a place amongst the best rugby playing nations such as South Africa, Australia and France, I am sure that some people would add England to the mix I tend not to as they don't really play rugby its more a game of 10 man force back (8 forwards, a half back and a first five to kick the ball out).

A little sour grapes perhaps?

2007 world cup finalist - England. ( New Zealand nowhere)

Previous tournament World Cup Winner - England. (New Zealand nowhere)

(But then you are never too keen on a fact, I momentarily forgot there.)

Well, there you go. Ho-hum.
January 31st, 2008  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
A little sour grapes perhaps?

2007 world cup finalist - England. ( New Zealand nowhere)

Previous tournament World Cup Winner - England. (New Zealand nowhere)

(But then you are never too keen on a fact, I momentarily forgot there.)

Well, there you go. Ho-hum.
I agree lets look at all the facts and perhaps the only ones that are relevant.

Games played against England - 29
Games won by New Zealand - 22 - 75.86%
Games lost - 6 - 20.69%
Games Drawn - 1 - 3.45%
World Cups won 1 each.
World cup matches played against each other:
New Zealand won - 2
England won - 0

Largest winning margin for New Zealand - 42 points
Largest winning margin for England - 13

Why would sour grapes enter this, based on these facts New Zealand is clearly the better team.

http://www.rugbydata.com/newzealand/england

Now I am sure people will want a some justification as to why we are off topic here and it is simple, this is a perfect example of why it is necessary to have all the facts (or at least as many as possible) when making statements while just presenting a one sided case only serves to wind people up much like the original document does.
January 31st, 2008  
03USMC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Half truths perhaps, the real problem being that the half that is truth, is concern enough to warrant the article. e.g. the fact that US citizens are also criminals and tax evaders is not the question, in fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. The point being made is that the illegals are exacerbating the problem. I'm certain that if we had the problem here in Australia that they have in the USA I would be very concerned too.

Read this very carefully. I'm going to put this as tactfully as I can.

The question is this regardless of what your oh so informed opinion is of illegal immigration in the United States is.

That very type of inflammatory journalism as made every person of latin heritage in this country suspect. You are now illegal until proven otherwise. I have been asked for a freakin greencard while in Class A's.

It has lead to racial profiling by law enforcement agencies. Who's states have decided to "get tough on illegals".

Something needs to be done about illegal immigration. But fanning the flames of institutionalized racism is not it.
February 1st, 2008  
pixiedustboo
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by major liability
Well, my redneck friend says we should put automated .50BMG machineguns behind a minefield across the whole border and put up signs that say "IF YOU STEP HERE YOU WILL BE DEAD" in Spanish.

If they truly love America and want to start a life here rather than getting jobs off the books and sending the cash to Mexico, they can go through the proper channels and immigrate legally.
Does that mean I'm a redneck too?

And I 100% agree with the last sentence. Whoohoo!
February 1st, 2008  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03USMC
Read this very carefully. I'm going to put this as tactfully as I can.

The question is this regardless of what your oh so informed opinion is of illegal immigration in the United States is.

That very type of inflammatory journalism as made every person of latin heritage in this country suspect. You are now illegal until proven otherwise. I have been asked for a freakin greencard while in Class A's.

That is ridiculous, but I cannot answer for the stupidity of others, did you point this out to the person.


It has lead to racial profiling by law enforcement agencies. Who's states have decided to "get tough on illegals"

Hell!, the department of Homeland security wouldn't like your views on their baby, it's virtually their Raison d'Ítre. I've always Pooh pooed the whole concept of it personally but from everything I see and read it is just about Government policy in the US. There's even a thread on this Forum about it and the difficulty experienced by persons of other than WASP origins entering the US.

Something needs to be done about illegal immigration. But fanning the flames of institutionalized racism is not it.
There is no need to be "tactful" I am a fully grown man and can stand and take on board constructive criticism. My opinion is just that, and in all truth probably as well founded and less opinionated than your own given the material that is printed and broadcast from the US. You seem to forget that the world is no longer remote from Australia, some of us even have them wireless radio thingies here.

You will always have racists, I'm not even going to go there, the US is renowned for it. One of the major reasons for persons migrating to Australia is our multi-cultural society. I am not suggesting that we don't have racists. I'm not Racist, and I'm not in the US, but I can see a problem. There's no second agenda, just the fact that I can recognise a problem when I see it, and I know that attempting to silence persons with legitimate concerns is not going to help.

Several years ago the Australian Broadcasting Commission introduced a ruling that no indications were to be given in any news items that a crime had been committed by persons of Aboriginal descent, as it was "demeaning". This has recently been rescinded. Not by Racists, but at the suggestion of the Council for Aboriginal Affairs (Staffed and elected by Aboriginals) as they realised that it was not fulfilling any worthwhile aim, they admitted that those that commit crimes should be demeaned.

People in a free country should be allowed to express their views, I'm sure that in today's litigious society, they will soon be bought to answer if they knowingly and deliberately tell lies. If not we will all be reduced to the stage where we are puppets, not allowed to comment on anything that might offend someone, whether they are deserving of criticism or not.

What is being lost in the smokescreen here is that all else aside we are talking about "Illegals" , is there something less illegal about illegal immigrants than those that commit other crimes?
February 1st, 2008  
Del Boy
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Now I am sure people will want a some justification as to why we are off topic here and it is simple, this is a perfect example of why it is necessary to have all the facts (or at least as many as possible) when making statements while just presenting a one sided case only serves to wind people up much like the original document does.

This is nonsense of course - you deliberately took the subject off-topic, for your own amusement. You had no justification. Now let me remove the question from the thread by pointing out your whole premise is irrelevant because I never questioned New Zealand position in the Rugby world, I recognise it - you took it upon your self to slag off the England team so I simply told it as it is. Last two world cups tell the exact story, re. the current situation. Now I am finished, with apologies to everyone else for deviating.

Sorry 03USMC - I can see you have serious issues here, which I would not wish to undermine.
 


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