If Japan Had Attacked the Soviet Union - Page 3




View Poll Results :Would the Axis destroy the Soviet Union and take control of Europe?
Yes, eventually the Red Army would be destroyed. 17 47.22%
No, the Red Army would still push the Axis out. 19 52.78%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

 
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November 30th, 2004  
A Can of Man
 
 
The Japanese did attempt an attack against the Soviets but had the unfortunate pleasure of running into General Zhukov. The Japanese lost the battle after having severely underestimated the USSR's power.
Keep in mind that General Zhukov was one of the KEY reasons why Russia beat the Germans. When it was clear Japan would not invade Russia, Zhukov, Russia's most accomplished General, was able to go to direct the war against the Germans. Had Japan even kept the intent of invading Russia, Russia would have had to keep a significant force and a bright General in the east.

But of course we know about Japan's desperate fuel situation at the time.
December 2nd, 2004  
airmanpatroler
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcoat
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanpatroler
If Japan had invaded they would have more than likely invaded through the North and south in a pincer attack. Surround the USSR forces and forvce a surrender.
Japan didn't attack the Soviets for 3 reasons.

First, there was very little for them to gain if they did so, Siberia was at that time thousands of miles of nothingness.

Secondly, The Japanese army was an infantry army with very few tanks( and the ones they had were crap) and almost no transport. If they invaded the majority of their army would have to walk Their logistics would fail before they got anywhere.

Thirdly, They had already taken on the Soviets in the 30's and the Soviets had kicked their butts. The Japanese military wasn't in the mood to get their butts kicked again

In 1941 the Italians attacked the British in N,Africa with a massive army very similar to the Japanese army, lots of infantry with very few tanks and transport. A very small but highly mobile British force using the open spaces of the desert cut them to pieces.
The same thing would have happened to the Japanese if they had tried to take on the Soviets in the vastness of Siberia.
The Japanese most certianly would have defeated the Soviets for one reason, air power the soviets had very little at that time as far as air power and most likely have not controlled the MOST of siberia, ,but just enough to surround them at Chita and Vladivostok
And as far as the Italians are concerned that was poor equipment and leadership on the Italians behalf.
December 2nd, 2004  
MadeInChina
 
keep in mind that russia's backyard * the fareast) has a formitable army, it nubmred some 3000 tanks, red honor* units, some 1.2 millon men under arms, 2000 aircrafts and 11000 artillery. also, throughout the war, though russians kept takign chunks off the fareast front, in turn they recieved the fresh batch of new equipemtn from teh good ol soviet factories.

During 1945, the soveits had 1.5 millon men, of in which 3 armies are guards units, 1 shock army( though changed name to guards) and 5 other armies in which all are well equiped, experienced, and stacked well with ammunition. the most important thign is that the russians had more than 20,000 artillery pieces( something the japanese really pisstheirpantswet about) and more than 4500 tanks and 7000 aircrafts.

the soviets also had 3 airborne divisionsl, 2 marine divisions, and a naval fleet.


when the soviets invaded manchuria, it was overwelming for the regular japanese infantry to handel since most had rifles aginsit soviet platoons all armed with autimatic submachines, the japanese also has little amount of tanks, unheard of anti-tank weap ons, and their artillery are lil more than 77mm mountain howtizers..

the offensive wasnt really cared much about because the soviets crushed the japanese like a bear stampingon a worm...
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December 2nd, 2004  
Kane
 
Quote:
the offensive wasnt really cared much about because the soviets crushed the japanese like a bear stampingon a worm...
Even though the Soviets had numeric superiority and had better equipment, it is possible that the Japanese army (which in this case is better led and trained) can push back the Soviet Offensive if they were able to recieve additional supplies and reinforcements. But, unfortunately the Kwuntung Army was implying suicidal attacks which amazingly made the Soviet Offensive difficult to push forward.
December 2nd, 2004  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck
The Japanese did attempt an attack against the Soviets but had the unfortunate pleasure of running into General Zhukov. The Japanese lost the battle after having severely underestimated the USSR's power.
Keep in mind that General Zhukov was one of the KEY reasons why Russia beat the Germans. When it was clear Japan would not invade Russia, Zhukov, Russia's most accomplished General, was able to go to direct the war against the Germans. Had Japan even kept the intent of invading Russia, Russia would have had to keep a significant force and a bright General in the east.

But of course we know about Japan's desperate fuel situation at the time.
I don't think Marshall Zhukov was one of the KEY reasons why the the USSR beat the Germans. He was a competent, able strategist that's true but he couldn't have done anything about the German invasion had the Germans not made key errors at various points during Operation Barbarossa. Zhukov is lauded as a superman in the West but closer scrutiny of his military record reveals flaws and mistakes, none bigger than the disaster that was Operation Mars. IMO Marshall Konev was just as able as Zhukov but he never seems to get mentioned in the West.

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/ba...ttle12_04.html

You're correct in saying that just the threat of a Japanese attack may have kept Zhukov and his Siberian divisions in the East. And had the Japanese attacked they would have been smashed by those same divisions. I think the Imperial Japanese Army well knew that they were not suited to fight against a modern mechanized army, especially in winter conditions. They had neither the armour nor the logistics in place to attempt a foray into the USSR anyway.
December 3rd, 2004  
airmanpatroler
 
 
Well the key would have been a two front war and surround the Russian army and cut off supply lines
December 3rd, 2004  
Trevor
 
I think Japan could have taken the USSR. The main strength of the USSR's military was simply immense numbers. The Japanese had air superiority and could have easily taken out their infantry and artillery.
December 3rd, 2004  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanpatroler
Well the key would have been a two front war and surround the Russian army and cut off supply lines
The threat of a 2 front war yes. In hindsight it was a curious decision for Japan not to declare war on the USSR. Had they done so, who knows what would have happened around Moscow in Dec '41/Jan '42.
December 3rd, 2004  
swordrapier
 
Zhukov.... strategist.... It seems to me that Zhukov's only strategy was to pile on manpower and equipment onto German lines. If he broke though great if not well try it again else were. It worked but that doesn't mean that it was brilliant strategy.

The German cause would have been helped if Hitler would have allowed His armies to fall back to more defenciable positions before they were bleed white by the red army. Zhukov strategy worked because Hitler's ego exacerbated German difficulties.
December 4th, 2004  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swordrapier
Zhukov.... strategist.... It seems to me that Zhukov's only strategy was to pile on manpower and equipment onto German lines. If he broke though great if not well try it again else were. It worked but that doesn't mean that it was brilliant strategy.

The German cause would have been helped if Hitler would have allowed His armies to fall back to more defenciable positions before they were bleed white by the red army. Zhukov strategy worked because Hitler's ego exacerbated German difficulties.
After Kursk onwards were the Germans doing this, and they inflicted very heavy Soviet casualties right up until the end of the Battle of Berlin. But you're right, had they started doing this earlier then who knows. Certainly the Red Army was the only army in the world IMO that was able to survive such grievous casualties and still win. Had Zhukov been a German, British or American marshall he'd have been dismissed after the debacle that was Operation Mars.