If this doesn't scare you, nothing will

[Rabs]

t is quite an idea Ironhorseredleg, but it might be to progressive for some of the hardliners. Maybe in a couple of years when they find out, that the wall doesn't work.

Why wont the wall work Ted the Red..

 

[Ted]

Why wont the wall work Ted the Red..

Rabs, we have gone over this! There isn't a system operational that can't be cheated. Whatever you come up with, the other party will best it. It is a action - reaction kind of thing. You build a wall, they'll dig a tunnel. You place very very deep fence posts, they'll go by see! You place mines and machinegun posts, they'll fly over it. (They did that to cross the Iron curtain; which had, electric fences, mine-fields, movement detectors linked to mg's.... the works. And still people got by!)

That is why I think it won't stop them. And untill now, history proves me right!

 

[Rabs]

ed. Whatever you come up with, the other party will best it. It is a action - reaction kind of thing. You build a wall, they'll dig a tunnel. You place very very deep fence posts, they'll go by see! You place mines and machinegun posts, they'll fly over it. (They did that to cross the Iron curtain; which had, electric fences, mine-fields, movement detectors linked to mg's.... the works. And still people got by!)

But by god Ted i dont want to stop them all I just want to slow it down from this rush to a trickle, a trickle you can put a bucket under. You cant put a bucket under a titlewave.

Also, technollogy has advanced a long way from the days of the Iron curtain. Plus the majority of this wall will be built in open land not in the middle of a city, as was the case in Germany.

 

[ironhorseredleg]

But by god Ted i dont want to stop them all I just want to slow it down from this rush to a trickle, a trickle you can put a bucket under. You cant put a bucket under a titlewave.

Also, technollogy has advanced a long way from the days of the Iron curtain. Plus the majority of this wall will be built in open land not in the middle of a city, as was the case in Germany.

Oh, Rabs. What beautiful webs you weave . . . 90% of the "Iron Curtain" was across open fields, which, btw were kept completely clear of civilian construction on the East German side for 1km (that's the outgoing side, to allow DDR BT's to capture folks trying to get out). Also, technology has improved everywhere, not just in the US, or is it just those "stupid field workers" we're trying stop from entering. (wow, that paragraph seemed somewhat flamey. . . oh, well).

I'd also like to see a little factual support about that tidal wave we need to reduce to a trickle. All indications I've heard seem to tell a different story. I'll see what I can find to support this.

-------------
edit:

OK, here's a decent link (thanks to fascist-supporter Google):
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Ill_Report_1211.pdf

One interesting fact is that apparently fewer than half of the total "undocumented alien" population this link documents originate from our immediate southern neighbor, though it doesn't speculate how many actually enter through that border. Additionally, while in 1999 (last year currently posted by our ever-increasing technology) just under 1million aliens illegally entered the US, just under 1/2 million were also deported out during that period. I guess I'm not characterizing 1/2 million a year total illegal entries into our country as a tidal wave. Isn't that somewhere less than 1% of our continental population?

 

[03USMC]

Most illegals do not work on fake SSN, though.
Also, we lose around 56 billion in taxes a year because of illegals alone, so the 700mil isn't really anything to offset their costs.



I don't even know who that is, so I guess that takes care of that accusation.

And I'll tell ya something. Not all of them are Latino Illegals. There are all kinds of Illegal Immigrants in this country be they Latinos who entered w/o inspection or Europeans who overstayed their Visas or violated the conditions thereof, or simply entered got their I94 and got in the wind (perhaps to learn aviation skills)

But yet when the talking heads at DHS or your friendly neighborhood politico gets their mug on the idiot box their hammering on the southern border.

I admit the following
1. The border is to porus and needs to be properly secured.
2. The IA's who enter are breaking the law and need to be deported.

However I believe the current issue as to undocumented workers has created an acceptable form of racism in the United States being chiefly aimmed at anyone of Latino extraction. Right now we are Wetbacks until proven otherwise......and it pisses me off.

 

[ironhorseredleg]

A little perspective, perhaps:

I own this modest home with a wonderful view of a lake just beyond my neighbor's yard. I have a dog that occassionally wanders into the neighbor's yard and does some unnice business. Our other neighbor also has a dog who occasionally wanders through our yard into theirs for the same purpose. My neighbor with the view decides to build a lovely 8 foot high concrete wall 3 feet inside his property line that runs the entire length of our shared border and then stops. For some reason he even adds some additional devices like barbed-wire across the top and motion-sensing floodlights on both sides of the wall.

Now I don't know about you all, but the first thing I'm going to do is put a leash on my dog, walk him around that wall and up the neighbor's driveway, and make him sit and watch as I demonstrate how to take a dump on the neighbor's front steps.

A wall won't work.

 

[PJ24]

And I'll tell ya something. Not all of them are Latino Illegals. There are all kinds of Illegal Immigrants in this country be they Latinos who entered w/o inspection or Europeans who overstayed their Visas or violated the conditions thereof, or simply entered got their I94 and got in the wind (perhaps to learn aviation skills)

That's a good point, but at the same time, the vast majority of our problems with illegal immigrants come from Mexico and are Mexican citizens. So yeah, there are others but the majority are Latino.

I do agree that that isn't an excuse for racism, but I'm also fine with calling a hammer a hammer and not a "Nail driving device."

 

[Rabs]

Also, technology has improved everywhere, not just in the US, or is it just those "stupid field workers"

I dont think generally un-educated field workers have the same resources to be able to bring the latest tech to bear

I guess I'm not characterizing 1/2 million a year total illegal entries into our country as a tidal wave. Isn't that somewhere less than 1% of our continental populatio

I guess haveing 500,000 people here we know nothing about is not a concern of yours?

Anyway,
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/ref/illegal_alien_numbers.html

In a letter dated February 2004, no less an authority than Arizona Senator John McCain recognized that Border Patrol apprehension figures demonstrated that "almost four million people crossed our borders illegally 2002

The Tucson sector Border Patrol union local 2544 on the number of illegal aliens in our nation: "There are currently 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in this country by many estimates, but the real numbers could be much higher and the numbers increase every day because our borders are not secure

an increase of 10,000 total additional illegal aliens added to the United States population each day.

CNN's Lou Dobbs, a highly educated authority on the illegal immigration crisis in our nation regularly uses a figure of "20 million" when discussing the number of illegal aliens on his broadcast "Lou Dobbs Tonight"

Other reports - including one recently released by the Pew Hispanic Center and figures used by the Center for Immigration Studies quoting 10 - 11 million illegal aliens present in the U.S.

Also the CIS (Center for Immigration Studies) gives the 10-12 million number.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back605.html

'd also like to see a little factual support about that tidal wave we need to reduce to a trickle.

There are some very good points in this video that this thread was orginally about.

of the "Iron Curtain" was across open fields, which, btw were kept completely clear of civilian construction on the East German side for 1km (that's the outgoing side, to allow DDR BT's to capture folks trying to get out).

Your correct I was referrting to the part built in between the two sections of Berlin were people would jump out of windows to try to land on other side. I apologize for my generilization (god i hate not haveing spell checker on Firefox, fix it Redleg )

Now I don't know about you all, but the first thing I'm going to do is put a leash on my dog, walk him around that wall and up the neighbor's driveway, and make him sit and watch as I demonstrate how to take a dump on the neighbor's front steps.

A wall won't work.

Not if your Neighbor had a thousand or so guys standing at the end of that wall to make sure it didnt happen

 

[ironhorseredleg]

Actually, I'm just uneducated enough about what's on his side of the wall that I'd probably try it anyway. I guess when his thousand guys beat me to a pulp, my wife, kids, and litigiously educated uncle would just end up owning his house through the courts.

A wall won't work.


edit:

Rabs, rabs, rabs. Come on, friend. Tell me you didn't just provide a bunch of supporting quotes from theamericanresistance.com . You really think those "facts" are better than the ones I could get from latinosareourfriends.biz ?

 

[Rabs]

Actually, I'm just uneducated enough about what's on his side of the wall that I'd probably try it anyway. I guess when his thousand guys beat me to a pulp, my wife, kids, and litigiously educated uncle would just end up owning his house through the courts.

What? I took it you ment this about the border, and when you (the immigrants) are humanely detained trying to violate his property your going to be given a bottle of water and sent back home.

While im sure there are rules broken by border patrol agents, no doubt. Dont make it sound like everyone that gets caught is just beaten to a pulp in the middle of the nowere.



And if a wall wont work lets find something else, the problem has to be dealt with.

 

[ironhorseredleg]

Yeh, actually I was back in my yard with my dog again when I replied. A thousand soldiers to protect the US-Mexican border. I'm sorry, I thought you were talking serious improvements here, not token support. I just figured the 1000 would be about right to keep me out of my neighbor's yard, not 500,000 from crossing a national boundary. Sorry, my bad.

 

[Rabs]

Yeh, actually I was back in my yard with my dog again when I replied. A thousand soldiers to protect the US-Mexican border. I'm sorry, I thought you were talking serious improvements here, not token support. I just figured the 1000 would be about right to keep me out of my neighbor's yard, not 500,000 from crossing a national boundary. Sorry, my bad.

Haha, point taken. Il try to post more reasonable numbers that are relevant to the metaphor next time.

 

[ironhorseredleg]

Actually, I'd just as soon not have 500,000 undocumented aliens wandering around this country trying to make a living as best they can while evading the law. That's why I suggesting letting in whomever wants in, providing they aren't on someone's watch list already. Then they can get the legal support they need to get going and become productive taxpayers like the rest of us. That will reduce to a trickle whatever flow of ia's you have b/c most of them will automatically become LA's (no pun intended there, California), and our federal investigative community will have a much wider pool of folks to spy on

 

[MontyB]

Actually, I'd just as soon not have 500,000 undocumented aliens wandering around this country trying to make a living as best they can while evading the law. That's why I suggesting letting in whomever wants in, providing they aren't on someone's watch list already. Then they can get the legal support they need to get going and become productive taxpayers like the rest of us. That will reduce to a trickle whatever flow of ia's you have b/c most of them will automatically become LA's (no pun intended there, California), and our federal investigative community will have a much wider pool of folks to spy on

Surely you jest?
For the most part I agree with your argument there is no security system anywhere that cant be beat and as soon as you come up with a better system someone will be finding the way around it.

However just having open borders is not something I believe would sit well with very many people, it would make it incredibly difficult to police "watch lists" due to the volumes of people involved.
Personally I think the key is in two actions (I am focusing on the southern border here as I dont imagine the complaints are aimed at Canadians sneaking into the US in their thousands for the right to pay more for their medical):
1) Increased border security.
2) Look toward reducing the reasons these people feel the need to jump borders.

I mean seriously does it really matter what you spend your money on as long as it actually works?

 

[ironhorseredleg]

Surely you jest?
For the most part I agree with your argument there is no security system anywhere that cant be beat and as soon as you come up with a better system someone will be finding the way around it.

However just having open borders is not something I believe would sit well with very many people, it would make it incredibly difficult to police "watch lists" due to the volumes of people involved.
Personally I think the key is in two actions (I am focusing on the southern border here as I dont imagine the complaints are aimed at Canadians sneaking into the US in their thousands for the right to pay more for their medical):
1) Increased border security.
2) Look toward reducing the reasons these people feel the need to jump borders.

I mean seriously does it really matter what you spend your money on as long as it actually works?

Whoa, pardner. You missed my initial proposal here. I don't mean totally open borders, just the opposite. Check back to that post if you're interested.