How expensive does gas have to get? Alternatives??

[godofthunder9010]

Currently, gasoline is much more expensive in the USA than anyone would have foreseen 6 months ago. And yet the price seems to be stuck perpetually high. While this hurts my poor pocketbook, it raises an interesting question:
How high does the price of gas have to be before alternative fuels finally start to boom??

There are a lot of dynamics to that question, most important of which might well be the stranglehold that oil companies currently have on things. The ease of implementation/use of whichever alternative fuel you care to pick also plays a tremendous role. But where there is a price crunch, aspiring businessmen and women everywhere will find ways to make a profit from the situation. And since petrolium is a limited resource, eventually you have to concede defeat and switch to something else entirely. So whoever comes up with the most marketable alternate wins financial security for themselves and their business for a long time to come. So there is plenty of incentive to take a very big stab at it. But how bad do gas prices have to get before it forces this to happen?

 

[phoenix80]

people will get burnt if it gets more than this.

 

[Marinerhodes]

There are alternative fuels out there already. The problem is implementing them with the vehicles that are manufactured today. I have heard that you can take a diesel, maybe it is gasoline, fueled vehicle and power it by using filtered vegetable oil (frying oil used in fast food restaraunts). I know there are some engine modifications to do so but I am not sure how costly that is.

If this is an actual, viable, longterm source then the farmers of the world will have a heyday for sure.

Some have said hydrogen, but I am sure that is not yet feasible with today's technology.

Propane is another source, but then again it is a natural resource and can be used up fairly quickly.

Methane? Not likely as it is even more combustible than gasoline vapors.

Not sure what all else can be used. I can see a new fuel source coming, as more and more people drive less and less and the idea of getting a new vehicle is not as attractive as it once was.

 

[5.56X45mm]

The problem isn't implementing alternative fuels. It's OPEC and (yes once again) liberals. The USA shouldn't be needing to buy her oil from foriegn sources nor does she need to cripple her own production of it. The Eco-Terrorist of the USA have closed down our Oil Refineries for the last thiry years. And with in these last thiry years. We haven't built, upgraded, or opened one up. Also, known locations of oil in and around the USA aren't tapped. And that's also hurting the us. We, the people of America must stop dealing with the Commie Pinkos of the environment and the oil kings of the Middle East and produce our own Texas Gold.

Luis (5.56X45MM)

PS - There is Oil in Alaska, the cast of Florida, and the Gulf Coast of Mexico. It's just sitting there. Let's get it before the hippie commie scumbags ruin it for us.

 

[Blixs]

I doubt there will be a alternate fuel boom anytime soon,since most cars around the world still operate on oil,and if there's still money to be made out of the oil wells,we'll still probably be using it.That's Capitalism for ya.

 

[chewie_nz]

The problem isn't implementing alternative fuels. It's OPEC and (yes once again) liberals. The USA shouldn't be needing to buy her oil from foriegn sources nor does she need to cripple her own production of it. The Eco-Terrorist of the USA have closed down our Oil Refineries for the last thiry years. And with in these last thiry years. We haven't built, upgraded, or opened one up. Also, known locations of oil in and around the USA aren't tapped. And that's also hurting the us. We, the people of America must stop dealing with the Commie Pinkos of the environment and the oil kings of the Middle East and produce our own Texas Gold.

Luis (5.56X45MM)

PS - There is Oil in Alaska, the cast of Florida, and the Gulf Coast of Mexico. It's just sitting there. Let's get it before the hippie commie scumbags ruin it for us.

jeez you make me laugh sometimes.


once again, a liberal is someone who's politic's are in the middle, neither left nor right wing in their out look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

however, US usage of this word as an insult has twisted it to such an extent that there is now an off spin;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_liberalism

now really, the only reason i am getting pissy over this is that i would quite happily refer to my self as a liberal, as my personal politics are center-left.

cool?


now back to topic, the oil companies surely aren't going to let any nasty, profit eating alternative fuels out onto the market untill they have no choice left...thats why you see companies such as BP spending alot of money on solar research etc etc

and in a similar thread to this i posted links to "bio diesel" sites...thats the vegetable oil fuel alternative

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=138411&highlight=bio+diesel#138411

 

[sunb!]

Well look at the US community - the bigger the better :?

It seems that all of you over there drive around in V8 3.5 litre Chevvy SUVs slurping a gallon per mile. Perhaps get a smaller car with a more effective engine, let us say a 1.6 litre 4D4? :rock:

Anyways since the US imports oil and gas from Europe to cover her own needs the overall fuel price rise. When the US get their own production up to date again things will change.

 

[Marinerhodes]

Well look at the US community - the bigger the better :?

It seems that all of you over there drive around in V8 3.5 litre Chevvy SUVs slurping a gallon per mile. Perhaps get a smaller car with a more effective engine, let us say a 1.6 litre 4D4? :rock:

Anyways since the US imports oil and gas from Europe to cover her own needs the overall fuel price rise. When the US get their own production up to date again things will change.

Some people think that way, fortunately for me I am not one of those people.


Ever since I got rid of my 1977 Dodge Monaco (which was a 318 V8 that got great gas mileage approximately 450miles to the tank) I have had little 4 cylinder vehicles. My question is why is it that my little 1990 Dodge Shadow had 80,000+ miles on it and still got appx 35 mpg and my 2000 dodge Neon with 80,000+ miles on it only gets appx 25 mpg? You would think they would improve in gas mileage eh? It is all a conspiracy I tell ya...a conspiracy!!

 

[LeEnfield]

Gas has always been cheap in America and there has never been thought that it might go up in price, so you have stuck with over engined cars that love to guzzle the fuel. Over here gas is running at about $10.00 per gallon and has been hovering around this figure for a while. As gas is so much more expensive we have cars with five or six forward gears on a manual gear box to make the most out the fuel and this allows you to have a high speed for low fuel consumption

 

[Charge 7]

Gas will have to go up alot higher before Americans give up their love affair with the automobile as it is today.

No, Sunblock, we don't all drive SUVs and even those that do often drive something else more fuel efficient alot of the time.

I drive a V8 Dodge Magnum, however, it has builtin fuel savings in that it uses 4 cylinders most of the time and only kicks in to 8 cylinders when it needs to. It does it all on its own.

We're doing what we can to save on fuel here. We sold Molly's gas guzzler and she's now driving the Magnum while I get around on my motorcyle. It's working fine for us. What I'm really worried about is the cost of home heating this winter for those on oil systems. Molly and I won't have to worry about it quite so much as we'll be alot further south soon. However, I own this house and property and plan to keep it for some time yet. I'll be renting it out while we're away the next couple of years. During any time when the house is unoccupied I'll still be paying to heat it.

 

[godofthunder9010]

Fossil fuel based home heating prices are going to get ugly, no doubt about it. It seems to me that this is yet another arena where alternatives ought to be able to make a play at the market. It would seem that a refined vegetable oil based replacement should burn the comparably to heating oil. If not that, there could be any number of other alternates. Natural gas systems would likely be pretty forgiving with a well designed alternative as well. So conceivably, there would seem to be good alternatives available in the home heating as well.

I think it is quite correct that the biggest obstacle is logistical. Great for me, I convert my car over to burning Ethanol or Hydrogen or whatever. Where can I fill up?? I think that implementation through gas lines to homes would be less difficiult certainly. You simply change out what you are pumping into the entire network of pipes more than likely you are good to go. Depends on the alternative of course.

Ultimately, at some point the world is going to run out of oil. There is a finite quantity of the stuff. The biggest reason that the USA tends to avoid pumping its own oil is two-fold. 1.) We would rather let OPEC nations and others bleed their own supplies dry and save our own for later. 2.) OPEC nations can give you the oil cheaper in most cases. But in the long run, no matter how it is managed and no matter how much new exploration is done, the supply most definitely will run out. If the oil companies are smart, they build the logistical groundwork for alternatives well ahead of time. As far as I can tell, most of their current work in the alternative fuel field is a token PR campaign to show that they care. Kinda like Phillip Morris doing anti-smoking ads. Much of it is useful certainly, but it isn't in their best interests to go too far with it. Case in point: Solar power is unlikely to become a viable and practical alternative to petrol-based fuel. Same with bigger and better wind-based electrical plants. So these things are very safe for them to focus research on, and it makes them money on the side anyways. Neither source is a viable replacement to stick in gasoline burning combustion engines afterall. (Most people aren't going to want to buy a whole new car just so they can plug into the world of alternate fuels.)

As far as I know, the easiest alternative to implement would be either Ethanol or Methanol alcohols. The overall engine and car modifications required would be easier than any other alternate fuel conversion that I'm aware of. Backyard mechanics pull it off regularly for the county fair Tractor Pull and other such events. Alcohol fuels are also better for your car's engine in the long run anyways. It pollutes far far less. So long as Ethanol prices can be kept reasonable, people would not have to "give up their love affair with the automobile" anytime soon. They are extracted from Corn and Wheat, so the number one supplier of the stuff would be the good ol' USA, and it would give the farmers something profitable to do with their grain surplusses. And lastly we might just consider that NASCAR might be onto something since they burn straight Ethanol currently. Indy cars burn Methanol. And consider that Ethanol and Methanol are much much easier to make than gasoline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_refinery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel

And that is just one alternative.

 

[king_garwal]

Alt Fuel Boom

Mainly because in America, where I'm from, electric powered car sales are up 30% from last year. How would you like to get 75 mpg? I would.

 

[5.56X45mm]

The problem isn't implementing alternative fuels. It's OPEC and (yes once again) liberals. The USA shouldn't be needing to buy her oil from foriegn sources nor does she need to cripple her own production of it. The Eco-Terrorist of the USA have closed down our Oil Refineries for the last thiry years. And with in these last thiry years. We haven't built, upgraded, or opened one up. Also, known locations of oil in and around the USA aren't tapped. And that's also hurting the us. We, the people of America must stop dealing with the Commie Pinkos of the environment and the oil kings of the Middle East and produce our own Texas Gold.

Luis (5.56X45MM)

PS - There is Oil in Alaska, the cast of Florida, and the Gulf Coast of Mexico. It's just sitting there. Let's get it before the hippie commie scumbags ruin it for us.

jeez you make me laugh sometimes.


once again, a liberal is someone who's politic's are in the middle, neither left nor right wing in their out look

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

however, US usage of this word as an insult has twisted it to such an extent that there is now an off spin;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_liberalism

now really, the only reason i am getting pissy over this is that i would quite happily refer to my self as a liberal, as my personal politics are center-left.

cool?


now back to topic, the oil companies surely aren't going to let any nasty, profit eating alternative fuels out onto the market untill they have no choice left...thats why you see companies such as BP spending alot of money on solar research etc etc

and in a similar thread to this i posted links to "bio diesel" sites...thats the vegetable oil fuel alternative

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=138411&highlight=bio+diesel#138411

Well, in the grand old US of A. LIBERAL means someone on the extreme left. Not the middle. We call them moderates. And someone on the right side is called a conservative.

 

[5.56X45mm]

I drive a 2002 Ford F-150 Pickup Truck. I usually spend about $40-50 US dollars to fill her up. I don't buy the 97 Octane stuff, just the regular 87 octane gas. Currently the price is floating around $2.89-$2.95 for regular. That's here in Miami Florida, USA. The other reason why gas is so high in some parts of the USA is because that some States of crazy enviromental laws and the gas must have certain chemicals in it. I checked the Internet at GAs Prices by MSN. And the cheapest price in the USA is at $1.95. That's right $1.95. State Taxes also have something to do with it. And as for me ditching my Truck and buying some (being politicaly correct for thos ethat can't stomic it on this board) four cylinders FORIEGN MADE CARS. I won't. I'll contnue to by American and continue to drive Trucks. Small cars suck. PERIOD. You can't take anything in them, you aren't safe in them, and you aren't comfortable in them. In my truck. I see over cars, I can take my truck out into the woods, not get stuck and if needed. I can drive in some flooded areas unlike those little plastic wonders of Asia.

In the end, the USA needs to tell the Hippies to SHUT UP! Build Refineries, oil pipe lines, and Drilling Sites. And lastly, stop buying from OPEC.

Luis (5.56X45MM)

PS - I like Steel for my trucks instead of plastic. I like them AMERICAN MADE. And WHO THE HELL MADE OPEC THE OIL TSARS!

 

[chewie_nz]

pretty much god....(if you want to look at it that way)


as the oil is under their countries. if you dont like it, find an alternative. there are plenty out there. and as one of the european posters hase already said, their paying $10 a gallon NOW. so i find it funny that it's like the end of the world that gas prices have gone up.


there are plenty of ways of shrinking your fuel bill, smaller more efficiant cars would be one way (and no, a f-150 doesn't count), better public transport is another. and alternative fuels are the big kahuna



one last thing, your usage of the world Liberal is incorrect.

Liberalism defines itself as guaranteeing, or at least maximising, individual freedom. However, that is a political claim rather than an objective fact, and not necessarily the most important aspect of the ideology, or of liberal societies. Under liberal principles, the form of society is determined by the outcome of competitive processes in a defined framework. The state, according to liberal ideology, should guarantee the process, but not interfere with the outcome: most liberals therefore see a limited role for government. In the economic sphere, liberalism advocates the free market as the ordering principle, and the production of goods and services by competing entrepreneurs. Liberal societies assign social status and advantage, by competition among talents. In politics, the early liberal principles of free expression and religious tolerance have evolved into the liberal-democratic principle of competitive multi-party political pluralism. Liberal pluralism is generally restricted to those who respect democracy and human rights.

 

[5.56X45mm]

It still doesn't apply to the USA. LIBERALS ARE SOCIALIST!!!!!

Expect that fact. LIBERALS ARE BAD IN AMERICA. Maybe the term "Liberal" means something different in you country. But in America. It means Marxism, Socialism, and Communism. And guess what. The American left and it's party. The Democratic Party is the left.

 

[chewie_nz]

It still doesn't apply to the USA. LIBERALS ARE SOCIALIST!!!!!

Expect that fact. LIBERALS ARE BAD IN AMERICA. Maybe the term "Liberal" means something different in you country. But in America. It means Marxism, Socialism, and Communism. And guess what. The American left and it's party. The Democratic Party is the left.

right....so they're democrats then.


the ACCEPTED usuage for the term liberal is for someone who's policies are centerist. case closed, thats all she wrote

 

[Charge 7]

Getting back to the topic...

I was watching a show on the History Channel tonight about sugar. Interestingly enough that when the energy crisis of the 1970s hit Brazil went whole hog on developing alternative energy resources. Guess what? They've succeeded! They've gone from an 80% reliance on foreign oil to a 10% reliance by turning to sugar. From sugar they make ethanol - so much of it that their cars often run on nothing else and it costs them less than half as much as gasoline at the pump.

In the US we don't have so many places we can grow sugar cane, however, we can grow sugar beets almost anywhere. Did you know that 25% of the world's sugar comes from sugar beets? In the US we make ethanol from corn which requires a more involved and ultimately more expensive process than converting it from sugar. We should be growing sugar beets like mad.

 

[chewie_nz]

Getting back to the topic...

I was watching a show on the History Channel tonight about sugar. Interestingly enough that when the energy crisis of the 1970s hit Brazil went whole hog on developing alternative energy resources. Guess what? They've succeeded! They've gone from an 80% reliance on foreign oil to a 10% reliance by turning to sugar. From sugar they make ethanol - so much of it that their cars often run on nothing else and it costs them less than half as much as gasoline at the pump.

In the US we don't have so many places we can grow sugar cane, however, we can grow sugar beets almost anywhere. Did you know that 25% of the world's sugar comes from sugar beets? In the US we make ethanol from corn which requires a more involved and ultimately more expensive process than converting it from sugar. We should be growing sugar beets like mad.

new zealand is looking at ethanol production at the moment....with our massive dairy industry we could more than half or relience on fossil fuels by using ethanol as a fuel diluter. same horse power and octane....but bugger all actual petrol in it

 

[godofthunder9010]

Getting back to the topic...

I was watching a show on the History Channel tonight about sugar. Interestingly enough that when the energy crisis of the 1970s hit Brazil went whole hog on developing alternative energy resources. Guess what? They've succeeded! They've gone from an 80% reliance on foreign oil to a 10% reliance by turning to sugar. From sugar they make ethanol - so much of it that their cars often run on nothing else and it costs them less than half as much as gasoline at the pump.

In the US we don't have so many places we can grow sugar cane, however, we can grow sugar beets almost anywhere. Did you know that 25% of the world's sugar comes from sugar beets? In the US we make ethanol from corn which requires a more involved and ultimately more expensive process than converting it from sugar. We should be growing sugar beets like mad.

Corn and wheat are a bit less efficient than sugarcane, but you can use them for Ethanol production as well. If you dig through that agonizingly long Wikipedia article I posted (the third one), you discover that even extracting alchohol from these sources is significantly more energy efficient than petrolium refining for gasoline. I didn't think of it, but sugar beets are growable almost anywhere like you said, and would likely see the same level of efficiency as sugarcane in Brazil. Besides that, there are certainly SOME areas of the USA that can readily produce sugarcane. Hawaii for instance. They could easily mirror Brazil and produce more than enough ethanol for themselves. Not sure whether the Gulf Coast and Florida can readily grow sugarcane, but I believe they can. The main thing is running with what you've got. Sugar beets are grown in great quantity even in the most desolate portions of the USA. Wyoming, Utah and Idaho grow them in the deserts. Then there is our immense surplus of corn, wheat and perhaps even rice that can also be used for ethanol production. In fact, there is potential for most types of biomass wastes to be used for alchohol production.