The Holocaust We Will Not See

perseus

Active member
Why do we not view the native Indian extermination as an holocaust, because most of it is beyond living memory? Soon the horrors of Hilter and Stalin will also become beyond living memory, but no doubt they won't be pronounced as heroes. Perhaps the victors dictate who is in the right?

In his book American Holocaust, the US scholar David Stannard documents the greatest acts of genocide the world has ever experienced(1). In 1492, some 100m native peoples lived in the Americas. By the end of the 19th Century almost all of them had been exterminated. Many died as a result of disease. But the mass extinction was also engineered.....

While the Spanish were mostly driven by the lust for gold, the British who colonised North America wanted land. In New England they surrounded the villages of the native Americans and murdered them as they slept. As genocide spread westwards, it was endorsed at the highest levels. George Washington ordered the total destruction of the homes and land of the Iroquois. Thomas Jefferson declared that his nation’s wars with the Indians should be pursued until each tribe “is exterminated or is driven beyond the Mississippi”. During the Sand Creek Massacre of 1864, troops in Colorado slaughtered unarmed people gathered under a flag of peace, killing children and babies, mutilating all the corpses and keeping their victims’ genitals to use as tobacco pouches or to wear on their hats. Theodore Roosevelt called this event “as rightful and beneficial a deed as ever took place on the frontier.”

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/201...t-see/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email
 
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Yes but to be honest that is the legacy of colonialism, Spain and Portugal in South America, Germany, Britain, France and Belgium etc in Africa , Pacific and Asia.

Yes the American Indian got shafted but so did every other indigenous population of the period at the hands of colonists so it is kind of hard to point the finger at anyone in particular.
 
For the record I wasn't pointing fingers at Americans as such, the Spanish were possibly the worst of all and George Washington was originally an Englishman!

Thinking about it though, there was not such a mass depopulation in Africa or Asia as in the Americas. These statements suggest genocide rather than colonialism
 
I know very little on US history but I do know the native people were treated very harshly. When they filmed 'Dances With Wolves' they wanted the native language in it and only two people in the world spoke it! This really can't compare to the Jewish Holocaust because they still kept their culture however the natives nearly lost theirs altogether!
 
I know very little on US history but I do know the native people were treated very harshly. When they filmed 'Dances With Wolves' they wanted the native language in it and only two people in the world spoke it! This really can't compare to the Jewish Holocaust because they still kept their culture however the natives nearly lost theirs altogether!

"When they filmed 'Dances With Wolves' they wanted the native language in it and only two people in the world spoke it!" quote Yin717

The say ignorance is bliss. You must be very blissful.
I would ask you for sources for your statement but in your
"blissful state" you would not be able to find them.:-D

"Dances with Wolves is a 1990 epic film based on the book of the same name which tells the story of a Civil War-era United States Army lieutenant who travels to the American frontier to find a military post, and his dealings with a group of Lakota." quote wikipedia

Lakota (also Lakhota, Teton, Teton Sioux) is a Siouan language spoken by the Lakota people of the Sioux tribes. While generally taught and considered by speakers as a separate language, Lakota is mutually understandable with the other two languages (cf. Dakota language), and is considered by most linguists one of the three major varieties of the Sioux language. The Lakota language represents one of the largest Native American language speech communities left in the United States, with approximately 6,000 speakers living mostly in northern plains states of North and South Dakota.[1] quote wikipedia

Don't usually use wikipedia for a reference but there are so many available and this is generic and would be hard to show a bias.

The topic of this thread is equally as "Blissful" about the development in the Americas and overlooks its history. Generally ignores Native American history prior to the arrival of "white" men.
The predominate native Americans took what they wanted from the people that were there before them and drove them out.

Kind of a brutal view, but you could say the Native Americans present at the advent of Europeans reaped what they sewed.

I guess because of the subject, Hitler and Stalin were brought up immediately rather than wait for 10 pages of discussion before playing the Nazi card.
 
This may seem a bit stupid to be quoting a video game, but it's still true.
"History is written by the victor."

:lol:

Fear not young stud that's obviously a product of our "newer" and "revamped" education system, the Game Console. "History is written by the victors" is attributed to Winston Churchill, but the original origin is unknown. Cpt. Price of Modern Warfare infamy is not the originator. :lol:

American colonialism wasn't any more righteous or saintly than anyone else's history, that's very true. Though, I don't believe the Romans or Genghis Khan attempted to make reparations or casinos to their conquered peoples.

Chupike makes an excellent point. Long before the Europeans stepped foot in American and the idea of American colonialism, Indians were losing their lands and lives to other Indian nations/tribes. I certainly wouldn't compare American colonialism to the Jewish Holocaust, but that's just me.
 
:lol:

Fear not young stud that's obviously a product of our "newer" and "revamped" education system, the Game Console. "History is written by the victors" is attributed to Winston Churchill, but the original origin is unknown.


He is also attributed as saying " and I intend to write it!". As it happens, he did exactly that, God Bless him!
 
The fact that Native Americans are still thriving to this day makes me think that their conquering cannot be described as a holocaust/genocide. Let's not forget that the main reason so many Native Americans died was from foreign disease, not fighting. Their bodies weren't equipped to handle the germs brought over from Europe.
 
Why do we not view the native Indian extermination as an holocaust, because most of it is beyond living memory? Soon the horrors of Hilter and Stalin will also become beyond living memory, but no doubt they won't be pronounced as heroes. Perhaps the victors dictate who is in the right?



http://www.monbiot.com/archives/201...t-see/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email

It is interesting you would provide a link that is an article about why the conservatives don't like the movie Avatar.

"This is why the right hates Avatar. In the neocon Weekly Standard, John Podhoretz complains that the film resembles a “revisionist western” in which “the Indians became the good guys and the Americans the bad guys.”(4)" quote from the link.

I am generally considered a conservative on this forum and I liked the movie and the effects even if the story line is well worn and full of cliches.

1. The name of the substance they are trying to mine is called "unobtainium". Pretty funny.
2. The value of the stuff is like $20 million a kilo?
Again very funny, as when they discuss the value, you see a sample floating which is obviously weightless.

Enjoy the movie!
 
Lame attempt to finger point and say nah nah nee nah nah. As I see it.

It's not unrecognized at least in the US.

Just of the top of my head one could read the following widely available books that look at the subject.

Custer died for your sins

Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee

Red Cloud

And Still the Rivers Flow

In the Spirit of Crazy Horse

The information and argument is out there.

But yeah the Avatar link is good Dances with Wolves in Space.


BTW: The problem with the Lakota spoken in Dances was that males were using a feminen verbage instead of masculine....not that Lakota speakers could'nt be found.
 
A number of books, but it's not viewed the same way as the Holocaust. Walk up to anyone on the street and ask them about the Holocaust they'll be able to tell you at least basic information; most of them couldn't tell you a thing about the Indian wars outside of what they saw in John Wayne movies.
 
There are areas of the US where it still is a very dividing issue. Its not so much that it is ignored as it is not taught.

I'm still not sure that it is comprable to the holocaust as an event. A war against a culture, a subugation of a people or more correctly groups of people who were often at war with other groups within their race.

It's not as well defined as the holocaust and it's different in it's conduct at least in North America. In South, Central America and the Caribbean it,s a different story.
 

American colonialism wasn't any more righteous or saintly than anyone else's history, that's very true. Though, I don't believe the Romans or Genghis Khan attempted to make reparations or casinos to their conquered peoples.

Hey, if we gave the Mongols some more time... ;)
 
Yes but to be honest that is the legacy of colonialism, Spain and Portugal in South America, Germany, Britain, France and Belgium etc in Africa , Pacific and Asia.

Yes the American Indian got shafted but so did every other indigenous population of the period at the hands of colonists so it is kind of hard to point the finger at anyone in particular.

And so did the jew, nothing special.
 
Ahem :D being one these Native American Anishnabe. History cannot be undone and is, for the most part, accepted and others will disagree with me. I'm just one of those that chooses to adapt and move forward and teach my children the same. Yes, shafting the people out of their lands is a source of major discontent but there are people, a minority, that do try to change this and actually work with the gov't. We can only hope that proper dues are given, a monumental task but a hope. Besides, also a belief that opportunities are given to one to do something good and if refused, well, bad karma for the one refusing. Support for those seeking to make changes for the NA people would be the best way to help. I'm going to hide in the closet now and blush, excuse me, lol.
 
Yes Monboit does mention in the article that diseases was probably the main factor. 100 million though is a lot. Remember this includes Native Indians in South American as well)

It is those statements from Washington and Jefferson which seem to be most alarming. In todays culture they would be regarded as genocidal rather than defensive.

I am trying to draw a parallel with the native wars in Asia and Africa, why do these people now rule their own lands with whites being a minority, because they didn't die of disease, or because force was only used to oppress rather than wipe them out?

SE asia it has to be said were composed of people who had some contact with the West and had an economic output in the case of India and China exceeding those of the colonial powered oppressing them. Strange this economic situation now seems to be repeating itself, but I digress.
 
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I think the main reason other mass killings don't get the same attention as the Jewish Holocaust is not because of the numbers of it but because of how it happened. An efficient government program of genocide inititated for no reason other than hatred is much scarier than a slow eradication that takes place over generations and is driven mostly by greed, even if the results are the same. What happened to the Native Americans was genocide, but one of apathy and racism, whereas the Nazis had a very clear idea of what they were trying to do, and did it much faster.
 
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That was just a major clashing of socities. European white men and Indian warrior tribes on the same land. **** was bound to happen. That could probably be used in a text book for human nature. I don't think the all facet hatred that people here think is the case though. It was not totaly rare for a mountain man to take a Indian wife or befriend a tribe to the point of fighting along side them.

I think for the Europeans during the earlier phases Indians were more of a mystery then anything. They did not act like us. When a group of Europeans would meet Indians they were probably thinking "Are they going to help us or attack us?" I don't think it's anything like the Jews. It was a struggle for land more then anything.
 
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