Hand to hand combat

You are not going to throw your rifle at anybody ever.... That is absurd. Why would you throw your lifeline at somebody when you could smoke them in the face with it's butt? The goal of combatives is not to snap necks and to break bones. It is used for control so you can hold a guy long enough for your buddies to run up and shoot the guy in the face. You are far more likely to push the enemy away from you to make distance for a few rounds.

The Marines are really good and the Army is just good? To my knowledge modern day US combatives started in the Army by the Gracie brothers teaching Army Rangers.... I can assure you we were very competent by the end of infantry school. I had at least 100 hours by certified trainers and countless of hours with battles during down time.
 
Big_Z said:
You are not going to throw your rifle at anybody ever.... That is absurd.
Click to expand...
As i recall a Pakistani soldier entered the room and saw a man with a gun, his own gun either jammer or was dry (dont remember) so he threw it at the man and went right after it.

The situation was desperate but i used it to show that you can do really a lot of stuff with your rifle.
Big_Z said:
The goal of combatives is not to snap necks and to break bones. It is used for control so you can hold a guy long enough for your buddies to run up and shoot the guy in the face. You are far more likely to push the enemy away from you to make distance for a few rounds.
Click to expand...
The goal of combatives is to incapacitate/kill your enemy and primarily involve maximum application of pain in minimum time, breaking a mans finger can render him completely defensless when you're about to slit his throat.

As for your buddies running up and helping if you're tackled during combat they wont be blowing anyones face off mainly because it might be yours.
Big_Z said:
The Marines are really good and the Army is just good? To my knowledge modern day US combatives started in the Army by the Gracie brothers teaching Army Rangers.... I can assure you we were very competent by the end of infantry school. I had at least 100 hours by certified trainers and countless of hours with battles during down time.
Click to expand...
From what i know there's no significant difference between Marines and the US Army if you disregard all the hype but then again i'm not in US Army.

@Redneck.

As a 9 month conscript?:)
 
I hope to become proficient in H2H one day, I mean even outside military training, for me like other things that involve fitness are something that inspires and sharpens my sense to discipline. So I do think that H2H still has a place in modern Militaries that hope to have a well trained and disciplined force, I don't look at it as just another form of combatives but another form of just over all training.
 
Panzercracker said:
From what i know there's no significant difference between Marines and the US Army if you disregard all the hype but then again i'm not in US Army.
Click to expand...

Wrong. The Army combatives program is based on BJJ, and Muay Thai. While the Marine program (MCMAP) also uses some BJJ, it greatly differs in the use of judo and karate style striking and they focus more heavily on bayonet tactics. From a personal standpoint, I feel that the Muay Thai strikes that are used in the Army combatives program are easier to learn, more effective, and less likely to cause injury to yourself while performing. You seem to think that combat is a one on one sport, and this is most certainly not the case. For exapmle, you asked how US troops get abducted in Iraq? The only cases I'm aware of involve either an IED strike or ambush that rocked the unit so hard that they were unable to prevent a dazed or wounded soldier from being dragged off. Usually the troops were hurt, and they were always outnumbered. I fail to see how proper employment of combative techniques could have prevented those incidents, so why even bring them up? I agree with you that I think I could handle 9/10ths of insurgents in hand to hand one on one.... but what about 3? What about being dragged from your driver's seat while dazed from a blast with the rest of your crew either dead or unconscious? You seem to be very confident in your ability to handle yourself in a fight, and that's good for you. If you make a living as a fighter like some of us do (including me) then you need to take a more comprehensive approach to personal protection to be prepared for a bad situation. I'm not talking about throwing rifles at people, I'm talking about the proper training and the proper equipment (use of combat locks, proper vehicle intervals, dismount under contact drills, squad movements, personal locator beacons, etc.). Almost every soldier I know would be unable to throw his rifle at someone because we keep it combat slung for retention purposes with either a 1, 2, or 3 point CQB sling. It makes it a lot easier to climb walls, search houses, stuff like that, while still being able to pull it up fast to line up a shot. I use the VCAS 2 point sling with the adjustment slider and it's the bees knees for CQB.

I think your comment of how your battle buddy won't be able to shoot someone just because you are engaged with them showcases how little combat experience you really have. It can happen, and I've watched someone shoot a guy point blank in the face while he was trying to wrest a pistol away from another soldier so don't sit there and make arbitrary statements about how stuff can and cannot happen because you obviously don't know. Try having your friends focus on eachother and try to wrestle eachother for dominant position. You'd be amazed at how easy it is to walk right up to them and put a pistol to one of their heads while they are focused on the guy that they are fighting. When they are in a struggle against another guy, they stay fixated on the guy they are fighting, giving you freedom to manouver to help. This is real world info, not something I read online or in a book, or something that some guy who's never been in a fight told me. Once again, training and teamwork are key... but hey, don't let me change your mind since you've been doing this for 2 whole years. I've got 11 in and 3 of those have been in combat (cue the random "I've got more combat time than you have in the military" saying) so I'll just keep doing what works for me. It's kept me alive this long. I try hard not to throw my service record in people's faces, but I really dislike misinformation especially when it's in reference to life and death situations.

Oh, and find me a guy running house to house in Iraq with an entrenching tool, I'd love to see that one.
 
Only real world H2H is the one that works..No more, no less.

//KJ.
 
Last edited:
Where does this "9 month conscript" come from?
First, I wasn't drafted.
Second, I served for two years.
And before people go off about it's "just" two, I'm pretty aware of how much off time guys in other armies get and neither I or the guys who served with me did. We get decent leave time but unless we're on leave, we're always on duty. And we don't get to "check out" at five and hit the local pub if "there's nothing really going on." Alright? I had no less than 7 friggin' jobs.
Oh, and weekend pass (the long one) is 8 hours long and you get that once every two or three months. The other weekend "pass" is actually a religious service pass which means you get to go to Church or whatever for two hours every sunday.
Outsource? We have to do everything and that doesn't exempt us from training either.
Then there's amphibious raid, marksmanship (which is a lot more physical than in most other armies due to doctrine), mountain warfare and the hikes, the force on force stuff etc all of which happen many times over the course of the year.

So Panzer... how long have you been doing martial arts and what disciplines have you done or tried out?
 
Last edited:
Cdt Matteo said:
I see a growing trend in militaries who put little enfisis on hand to hand combat training. I know that many asian militaries have great training programs and the Marine's have a decent one.

As a practitioner of Jujitsu (the martial art that most hand to hand combat systems are based off of) I see a need in enforcing this almost forgotten aspect. Punches, kicks are definately not sufficient for the war we are fighting today which has us often very close to the enemy.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I see your point. I mean we are now in a war solely on team work and weaponry. Yet, just as in the police. although the chances of you using hand to hand combat are slim it could be a life saver at a time when it's really. You may never know when it comes in handy. You may not need it in the battlefield, but you may need it on routine patrols in your own country or other? I can understand your point but I would still argue it is a very valuable skill the army should learn.
 
Agreed. Hand to hand is a valuable skill, but it takes a back seat to a lot of other more useful training. If you are making room on the training schedule and you are able to put more weapons training on the schedule then you cut down on other stuff. It just happens. There is only so much training time available and you need to choose your training to fit your mission set rather than train for stuff you aren't going to use as much.
 
You have got a fair point. And I guess it does depend where your working. I mean, SEALS or SAS are more likely going to need hand to hand combat opposed to front line troops who may not need it as much. And I see what you mean about the training programme yet I would still say you should have some time for it for as you said it is very valuable. But I would never say it should go in front of weapon's training. I think you should get that out of the way before hand to hand defenatley!
 
Well i can understand it, say you 'bump' into a enemy in a jungle, or in a urban setting and your weapon is knocked from your hand, or some other event. I cant see how practical it would be since the rest of your fire team would waste them as soon as he shows a exposed point.
 
Britney said:
Well i can understand it, say you 'bump' into a enemy in a jungle, or in a urban setting and your weapon is knocked from your hand, or some other event. I cant see how practical it would be since the rest of your fire team would waste them as soon as he shows a exposed point.
Click to expand...

Yet if your on a secret operation in a unit such as the SEALS and shooting may blow your cover or whatever, then what would you think?
 
I think it is quite redicolous that some of you believe that H2H training is useless. Weapons aren't always on hand and you don't always have your buddies beside you to light up the enemy. The truth is that hand to hand combat happens, and because of the environment we have found ourselves in (urban combat) it will happen more and more frequently. There are plenty of examples in Iraq for instance which demonstrate the use of this discipline. For those who are under the impression that H2H training is useless, have you ever seen a person who knows how to fight compared to one that uses brute strength? Those who are well praticed in H2H are just down right scary.
 
Yin717 said:
Yet if your on a secret operation in a unit such as the SEALS and shooting may blow your cover or whatever, then what would you think?
Click to expand...


Thats another exception in favor of melee training. I was just referring to the typical combat scenario, special forces and unconventional units must certainly be trained extremely well in all forms of combat. Non-lethal hand to hand subduction for VIP targets, or if things get dicey and like you said the cover gets blown. maybe your shaking hands with a bad guy, or maybe firing your weapon at the time will give you away.

I dont think it should be removed from training, i do however question it's limited use on the traditional battlefield.
 
reserch has been done

reserch conducted on hand to hand combat have Showen that the man to come out better off is the man to get his hand on a weapon first or a mate has rocked up to help. if their is no weapon at hand all you can do is fight the enemy untill your mate rocks up or his, unless your a ufc world chap
 
I think it is quite redicolous that some of you believe that H2H training is useless. Weapons aren't always on hand and you don't always have your buddies beside you to light up the enemy. The truth is that hand to hand combat happens, and because of the environment we have found ourselves in (urban combat) it will happen more and more frequently. There are plenty of examples in Iraq for instance which demonstrate the use of this discipline. For those who are under the impression that H2H training is useless, have you ever seen a person who knows how to fight compared to one that uses brute strength? Those who are well praticed in H2H are just down right scary.
Click to expand...

I think it is quite ridiculous that you care to question the opinions of the BTDTs on this thread.
 
its not useless

We should all be traind in h2h but I think the main reason why its not big in the aus army is because young stupid kids who manage to get this training would go out into town full of cofidence and ended up in hospital.
 
ozzy said:
reserch conducted on hand to hand combat have Showen that the man to come out better off is the man to get his hand on a weapon first or a mate has rocked up to help. if their is no weapon at hand all you can do is fight the enemy untill your mate rocks up or his, unless your a ufc world chap
Click to expand...


The main purpose of hand to hand is to outlast/survive long enough for help to arrive if you are unable to defeat your opponent. As an MP we use hand to hand training to help us deal with Law and Order operations when pain compliance is needed and more conventional less-lethal weapons are either unavailable or incompatible with the environment (for instance high altitude causes mace to product chemical burns). Many military prisons do not allow weapons of any kind in certain areas and hand to hand combat training is essential when trying to subdue a noncompliant detainee until the appropriate response team arrives.
 
Russian Spetnaz are taught sambo, a mixed martial art, and h2h combat is always a usefull thing to know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top