Haiti and better solutions from military?

[The Other Guy]

So they can go back to their lives of poverty? We need to stop propping up useless countries.

Depending on your point of view, just about any country in the world could be considered useful or useless. Do unto others what you would prefer they do to you, you know?

 

[MontyB]

Depending on your point of view, just about any country in the world could be considered useful or useless. Do unto others what you would prefer they do to you, you know?

I disagree some countries are nothing but a huge drain on the resources of the developed world and no matter how much money, time and resources are thrown at them it will make no difference.

I think there comes a time when we have to concentrate on the things that can be fixed and let the rest go down the drain, out of interest I remember the Bob Geldof's 1984 Band Aid concert to feed 3 million starving Africans and I also recall his comments in 2001 wondering how we were to feed the 30 million starving Africans, the situation is no longer winnable in my opinion.

 

[03USMC]

I think the 'breakdown of public order' is mainly hysteria, an excuse for the slowness. That said if you leave it too long it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Katrina is not the issue here, and in this case of Katrina there were more than enough bobbles at the State and Local level that blame can be pretty evenly laid on three entities...so it's a point of reference that is moot.

Complain against slow relief if you want, but is the rest of the world supposed to have planes and ships loaded and on alert for any little occurance that might happen Ready to go at a moments notice?

The goverment of the failed state of Haiti had no plan, no stores and no operational capability....it's on them not the rest of the world.

 

[The Other Guy]

The goverment of the failed state of Haiti had no plan, no stores and no operational capability....it's on them not the rest of the world.

But there's a major difference between Katrina and the earthquake, and that's that you can't really see earthquakes coming, whereas the hurricane was tracked on national news every night for days leading up to landfall.

 

[perseus]

Katrina is not the issue here, and in this case of Katrina there were more than enough bobbles at the State and Local level that blame can be pretty evenly laid on three entities...so it's a point of reference that is moot.

Complain against slow relief if you want, but is the rest of the world supposed to have planes and ships loaded and on alert for any little occurrence that might happen Ready to go at a moments notice?

The government of the failed state of Haiti had no plan, no stores and no operational capability....it's on them not the rest of the world.

I'm not sure criticising Haitian government is an excuse for doing nothing, no more than criticising Bush was an excuse for not helping the New Orleans people.

I suspect the US is doing more than most at the moment, my criticism is more directed towards world governments, their military, the UN, etc although it is inevitable that the US can help most here due to geography and it's large military capability.

Note one of the Pentagon chiefs was asked a similar question, 'why not just drop supplies by parachute?' with an inevitable response. Note I suggested paratroops to organise the dropped supplies.

Perhaps a quick response team (almost purely military) could be airdropped in to guard the supplies which already exist there to avoid looting of the stores, and distribute the supplies.



I'm still not convinced that even airdrops without security isn't all that bad, almost anything is better than what we have.

• Even if local militia did obtain some of the supplies isn't this better than nothing?
• What if the airdrop was distributed and widely spread, would this not ensure the weaker if not the weakest would get something?
• Airdrops and the availability of some supplies even if they are sold on by militia, could minimise any rush on subsequent drops by aid workers and even act as diversions.

At the moment it has all degenerated into bureaucracy as if they are planning a military logistics operation from scratch using warehouses etc. This is fine for the long term but hardly suitable for short term emergency relief for people dying of thirst.

I still say the threat of disorder is being exaggerated

The UN says the situation is calm in general with a few reports of scuffles, looting and gunshots. Some rescue crews said they were forced to stop work at nightfall because of security concerns. Responsibility for maintaining law and order in the capital has fallen completely to the UN mission's 3,000 international troops and police. Haiti has no army and its police force has all but collapsed in the aftermath of the earthquake. US troops sent to help the relief effort could be called on to keep order if security deteriorates, officials said.

 

[perseus]

But there's a major difference between Katrina and the earthquake, and that's that you can't really see earthquakes coming, whereas the hurricane was tracked on national news every night for days leading up to landfall.

Good point, although there needs to be more preparation for regions which are known to be in earthquake zones.

I can see why a poor country such as Haiti didn't have elaborate earthquake proof buildings (although I heard the additional cost is only 4%) but surely key organisational centres could have been built this way? Even the UN buildings and aid centres which had a major presence already have been knocked out.

Haiti was a long term disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Wallabies]

• Even if local militia did obtain some of the supplies isn't this better than nothing?
• What if the airdrop was distributed and widely spread, would this not ensure the weaker if not the weakest would get something?
• Airdrops and the availability of some supplies even if they are sold on by militia, could minimise any rush on subsequent drops by aid workers and even act as diversions.

No. Black markets would pop up and this is all bad, i.e Somalia.

Perhaps a quick response team (almost purely military) could be airdropped in to guard the supplies which already exist there to avoid looting of the stores, and distribute the supplies.

Yeah good idea, every military loves the image of shooting dead a starving mother.

I still say the threat of disorder is being exaggerated

Two Dominican relief workers just got shot.

 

[GG9909]

I thought dropping aid, security and supplies by helicoptor would've been the method used. What irks me is the lack of appreciation or efforts of the Haitian people themselves to attempt to help clear roads or landing areas rather than scream 'they are doing nothing!' :-(

 

[The Other Guy]

I thought dropping aid, security and supplies by helicoptor would've been the method used. What irks me is the lack of appreciation or efforts of the Haitian people themselves to attempt to help clear roads or landing areas rather than scream 'they are doing nothing!' :-(

Their government is in shambles, they're fighting off looters, trying to capture escaped convicts, and all the while trying to find food for themselves in addition to digging their own loved ones out of collapsed structures. I wouldn't exactly call that nothing!

 

[03USMC]

I'm not sure criticising Haitian government is an excuse for doing nothing,

BS. The World is tripping ass over tea kettle to get aid to Haiti as they always do, whenever stuff goes sideways for that little slice of hell. And Haiti is doing the same BS it always does. Degarding into violence, complaining about the speed of relief and type of relief.

Haiti has become a welfare case for the rest of the world and continually stands there with it's hand out and it's demands. It's own goverment had no disaster plan, no plan. "Oh well the world will bail us out again."

 

[Wallabies]

If you want to help Haiti then line all their officials up against a wall and shoot them. Every one of them is corrupt.

 

[-- Dusty]

Well, as I said in another thread, maybe we can make something good out of this.

 

[Chukpike]

Their government is in shambles, they're fighting off looters, trying to capture escaped convicts, and all the while trying to find food for themselves in addition to digging their own loved ones out of collapsed structures. I wouldn't exactly call that nothing!

Pretty much, business as usual. Does not seem like they need anything other than a few extra shovels.

If you want to learn anything about Haiti you can visit here,

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ha.html

The poorest people in Haiti may have had the highest survival rate. The one's that live in steel town.
A few pieces of corrugated tin falling on someone is not going to cause much harm.

 

[03USMC]

Their government is in shambles, they're fighting off looters, trying to capture escaped convicts, and all the while trying to find food for themselves in addition to digging their own loved ones out of collapsed structures. I wouldn't exactly call that nothing!

You are confusing the regular people with their do nothing goverment. The regular people may well be looking for food and digging family members out...maybe. The Haitian goverment is not.

A friend of mine has done a couple MEDAID missons in Haiti. According to him alot of people have stopped farming because they know that the US and the UN are gonna pass out the food.

So how long does the rest of the world enable their lack of motivation to fix their country?

 

[-- Dusty]

03, I guess that makes us a lot better than them. We don't wait for f*g handouts. We take care of ourselves.

 

[03USMC]

No we give em, and give em and give em.

 

[Wallabies]

03, I guess that makes us a lot better than them. We don't wait for f*g handouts. We take care of ourselves.

Your government takes care of you, which is of course its whole job and purpose. If the US government was 'decapitated' then I'd say there would probably be about 100 million dead inside a month.

 

[perseus]

I thought dropping aid, security and supplies by helicoptor would've been the method used. What irks me is the lack of appreciation or efforts of the Haitian people themselves to attempt to help clear roads or landing areas rather than scream 'they are doing nothing!'

The average Haitian public are helping themselves far better than we would, they have had to. I hear reports of familes joining together to share out food & tapping into broken water pipes, because no-one has given them any supplies. There are some sparodic reports of fighting but it all seems to be blown out of proportion. I hear time and time again about the patience of the Haitan people.

I don't think clearing roads or landing areas is the problem, communication and port infrastructure is out and the airport has a very limited capacity.

Admittedly their government and the UN offices are a shambles. Heard that there are 1000s of Brazilian army who have had generators and JCBs in a compound near the airport from the start but they have received no instructions to do anything with them!

 

[perseus]

Seems that at last they are doing what they should have done earlier, although one aircraft isn't much. On the world service I heard that Defense Secretary Robert Gates claims that these are either secure remote areas with US, Haitain and UN officials or areas we could be confident that there would be no looting. Hang on, so there are areas in which these drops could have been made without troops?

On Jan. 18, a U.S. Air Force C-17 Globemaster III -- like the aircraft pictured here -- airdropped more than 69,000 pounds of food and water to earthquake victims in Haiti. (File photo)
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And the leading US general in Haiti, Lt Gen Ken Keen, said there was currently less violence in the capital Port-au-Prince - already a troubled city - than there had been before the earthquake

US begins airdrops of food and water into Haiti

The US had previously said airdrops might trigger riots. The US military has begun airdropping food and water supplies into earthquake-hit Haiti. Some 14,000 ready-to-eat meals and 15,000 litres of water were dropped north-east of the capital Port-au-Prince, the US said.

It had earlier said airdrops were too risky but congestion at the airport has hampered aid distribution. The US is now considering airdrops across Haiti.

 

[perseus]

I understand one of the main bottlenecks is the port where the main crane is out of action and 800 port crew are standing around.

Forgive me for my simplistic analysis, but is there anything to prevent airlifting a few of these and driving them to the port?