Gibraltar.

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EagleHammer

Active member
In my question about an Argentine invasion of the Falklands, someone wrote something about Gibraltar. And that got my interest.

Certainly Gibraltar is an important strategic place, But will Spain take it by force if international pressure of some event will make them whant to take Gibraltar. Militarily what would happend? beacuse certainly Spain have the capability?

I know this isn't a very possible scenario but i am curious. Maybe someone here knows about some political pressure over the issue.
 
EagleHammer said:
In my question about an Argentine invasion of the Falklands, someone wrote something about Gibraltar. And that got my interest.

Certainly Gibraltar is an important strategic place, But will Spain take it by force if international pressure of some event will make them whant to take Gibraltar. Militarily what would happend? beacuse certainly Spain have the capability?

I know this isn't a very possible scenario but i am curious. Maybe someone here knows about some political pressure over the issue.
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Go here for history and politics:

http://www.gibraltar.gi/history/

One thing to note, the residents of Gibraltar are not mainly of Spanish decent. They consider themselves Gibraltarian: the basic element in what has become the Gibraltarian is the Genoese', conceding at the same time the importance of other groupings, namely the Spaniards, Jews and British.

The do not appear to want to become part of Spain.
 
i dont see two NATO powers going to war over this piece of land.

Now, setting all political and other reasons aside:

The Spanish would easily take Gibraltar as it has a land border with Spain, and no land boreder with the UK. However I seriously doubt that the Spanish can hold it against what would be a very violent and quick British respons. Actually exept for France and Germany I cant see any curent European country fighting the Brits with any good results.

Here are the noumbers on the spanish and the british navies, both would have to play a very serious role in such an un-reasonable war(according to wikipedia, i take no responsibility):
Spain-UK:
Aircraft Carriers:1-2
Destroyers:0-5
Frigates:10-17
Submarines:4-12
Minesweepers:7-16

Without plunging my self into it Im assuming that the British ships are as good if not better, their crews as good if not better, and certinly have more experience in dployments than the Spanish vessels. All in all i would say the British fleet would rule the sea in this situation.

This actually gets worse when you realise the very mighty and higly pissed off RAF will be with in range to give extra air support. And also, in a few years the British will replace their existing Aircraft Carriers with the new Elizabeth class carriers, that will carry 40-50 aircraft.
 
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Spain

Sherman's comments about:
However I seriously doubt that the Spanish can hold it against what would be a very violent and quick British response.
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Perk my interests a little but want to go on record saying I think being unlikely to ever happen. I think the UK would have difficult holding against a pressed attack by Spain.

England's aircraft without extra tankers would be hard press to hold fighters for anytime over that region, its pretty far distance wise away. Spain has a bunch of trained up Hornet pilots plus other aircraft which would be operating from close by bases.

I would have look up how many aircraft each had but England I don't believe is fighter heavy. There Typhoon squadrons are basically there best asset air wise. Spain might have more tactical fighters overall and operating behind layered defenses might give them the edge for a while. They are NATO trained and wouldn't be pushovers that's for sure.

On the flip side
UK's forces are very good Air, Sea, and Land, so it would be interesting. Sub crews are rated very good and could soften up certain air bases with cruise missiles attacks. I don't see enough reason for something like to take place as far I know both are friendly toward each other.

I would like to learn more about Spain's Arm Forces its one of those quite nations you don't hear about much.
 
The UK has more fighters than Spain, if you count the Tornados as air-to-air(i believe they can do air to air). Spain has a few dozen F-18s and exept for that a handful of Mirage F-1s, which are flying targets today.
 
Aircraft

Like I said I would have to look up how many fighters each has. I seem to remember Spain buying 40/50 ex-US Marine Hornets. Tornado's can do air to air and do have good range. But operating out of close by air bases is a plus and Spain would have Ships to use for air defense as well plus land assets. The RAF would be operating a good distance and doing it all with air power.

Spain is NATO trained and equipped I just don't know enough about their training. By rep alone I know the RAF are good but are they that much better isn't there like 600 miles between?

Does anybody know about Spain's Armed Forces who could chime in?
 
Ships

Your correct UK Navy would play a factor in this but I still need to know more about Spain. Is anybody from the forum from Spain?

I just just didn't want to be too fast just saying England would dominate so quickly. Both might have similar weapons and training which makes it difficult on certain levels.
 
if we are a talking past 2015, the UK will, as ive said, deploy two very large new aircraft carriers with 40 fixed wing fighters on each...
 
It would become a long war.I believe that Spain could do pretty well as they can fight at "home". It would be cheaper for them.
 
I am a believer in anti-ship missiles (not that i am a navy guy). After what Argentina did with just five exocets.

So i don't think they can use the aircraft carrier effectively, beacuse to close they can be touched, to far away the could just as well use the RAF.

P.S. I know Gibraltar is a strategic place but why would Britain go to war for it?Beacuse of a threat level?
 
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Anti-Ship missiles do not cancell out the enemy navy. Thats like saying "dont worry about their tanks we have ATGMs"
 
No of course not, but a ship is more expensive then a tank, plus if Britain would lose 10 boats a war wouldn't be possible.
 
Aircraft

If something crazy like this were to start over Gibraltar and shooting took place Spain could throw a brick into it by striking north at UK aircraft coming south.
UK's Air Force would be hard pressed deploying strike packages that far away providing nobody else open bases to them. The edge would go to the defender
I think UK's fighters would have a short time over target and any outward attack by Spain's fighters would throw a wrench into the attack.

Sorry for using the wiki but that's what I could find fast, I by no means think it's 100% correct anybody can write this stuff in as we all know.

According to these links Spain has a fair number of Hornets if they trained up well I don't see them being a pushover.

Spain Air Force

Dassahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_


UK Air Force

Link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_Kingdom_military_aircraft

 
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EagleHammer said:
In my question about an Argentine invasion of the Falklands, someone wrote something about Gibraltar. And that got my interest.

Certainly Gibraltar is an important strategic place, But will Spain take it by force if international pressure of some event will make them whant to take Gibraltar. Militarily what would happend? beacuse certainly Spain have the capability?

I know this isn't a very possible scenario but i am curious. Maybe someone here knows about some political pressure over the issue.
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I made the comment about Gibraltar.


Gibraltar is an extremely vital base of operations not only for Britain but NATO as its basically the gateway to the Mediterranean, the British base on Cyprus and the Suez canal. OK Spain is part of NATO, but I don't think Britain will concede Gibraltar to Spain as its too important an asset, because of Cyprus, and that the Suez canal is an important trade route.

Spain did close its border with Gibraltar a few years ago, but has since been re-opened. Like the people of the Falklands, the people of Gibraltar want to remain part of Britain. If some kind of conflict did break out between Britain and Spain, I think it would be an extremely hard fought battle by both sides, which both Britain and Spain would want to avoid.

In 2002 an agreement in principle on joint sovereignty over Gibraltar between the governments of United Kingdom and Spain was reached. There was a robust campaign against these proposals by both the Government and people of Gibraltar, culminating in a decisive referendum. Gibraltarians have further argued that one cannot claim to be acting in the "interests" of a population, while at the same time ignoring its wishes and democratic rights.

With the election of a moderate left-wing government in Spain (2004), Spanish officials noted that, even if Spain does not give up its claim to assume the sovereignty of Gibraltar, no advance could be achieved without taking into account the wishes of the Gibraltarians. The result of this new approach was the creation of a tri-partite forum with equal participation by the Gibraltar government. Such movement was qualified by Spanish right-wing parties as a surrender. Gibraltarians remain suspicious of Spain, despite improved relations, and note Spanish intransigence demonstrated with issues like the opposition to Gibraltar's membership of UEFA
 
Sides

Thanks BritinAfrica for bring the political side to this matter. I hope for the Gibraltarians there choice is followed. :cheers:
 
First of all they would have to take Gib, with all the tourist going back wards and forwards across the border, and do you think that the build up of Spanish forces would not be noticed. Britain could air lift more troops out to Gib in just over an hour all could be stationed underground. The Rock is riddled with tunnels and defences that point towards Spain as that is were the attack has always been expected to come from.
 
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