Escalation of War if Iran attacked? - Page 3




 
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November 4th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
But even if Iran got the N bombs, Israel will not be threated (not attacked by Iran's nuke) by this, right? Since it is MAD, Israel got plenty of nukes too, so it will just become another version of Cold Nuke War btw Israel and Iran same as that of USA vs USSR, nothing will threat Israel's safety.

But of course if Iran got a "leader" who is well "ready" to throw the N bombs, but I highly doubt about this possibility, since WHEN you really holds N bombs in your hands, then you will start to feel the "FEAR" of nukes, by yourself.
November 4th, 2004  
Chocobo_Blitzer
 
It'd be nice and dandy if we could open our closed door to Iran, make everything open again, help them find another way for fuel, etc...


But then there's that, you know, vowing to destroy Israel thing. See that's a problem, and with the US closely tied with Israel, that's the reason anyone with a US passport is targeted.

Perhaps peace with Israel and Palestine would turn Iran around? All that hate just *poof*. I suppose Tony Blair has a reason for shooting at the Israel/Palestine problem foremost.

But Iran is rushing to get a nuclear program, and it's not for peace. Of course you must try to pressure Iran before you use force, but it must stay on the table.

I like how you try making the US out as some muslim suppressor, the patriot act is indeed worthy of question, but care telling me about anything else? Are there containment camps around or what?

I'm sorry, but guess what, the terrorist group that attacked us- as well as their allies, are muslim. Of course muslim's will be the first to question.
November 4th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobo_Blitzer
It'd be nice and dandy if we could open our closed door to Iran, make everything open again, help them find another way for fuel, etc...
U think Iran really needs fuel? They are selling fuels.

It is a proud nation, which will try all posibilities to get the nuke bombs, they want to be on the same level as all major powers, completely equal.
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November 4th, 2004  
Bratwurst
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobo_Blitzer
But then there's that, you know, vowing to destroy Israel thing. See that's a problem, and with the US closely tied with Israel, that's the reason anyone with a US passport is targeted.
Long lasting war and conflict does terrible things to peoples minds and convictions. I don‘t blame the Arab nations, including Iran, for their stance towards Israel. I don’t blame Israel for holding its own either. I know the history of the conflict quite well and it‘s going to be one hell of a bugger to sort that mess out. No question about it... Israel is not the only reason that Americans are so loathed though. Our aggressive politics and Iraq is certainly a new and strong factor among others I don't want to elaborate on in this thread. Invading Iran would turn things dismal to say the least. We are doing all we can to maneuver us into the wrong direction.

Quote:
Perhaps peace with Israel and Palestine would turn Iran around? All that hate just *poof*. I suppose Tony Blair has a reason for shooting at the Israel/Palestine problem foremost.
It’s not only Tony Blair. Every child with basic education should be able to make that realization. It is a vital key of stopping Islamic terrorism in the long term.

I’m no fool though, it can’t all be resolved peacefully. Highly organised cells like Al Qaida need to be singled out and taken down with united strenght, regardless.

Quote:
But Iran is rushing to get a nuclear program, and it's not for peace. Of course you must try to pressure Iran before you use force, but it must stay on the table.
Weapons are never made for peace. Iran is building nuclear weapons for the same reason that other countries, including the USA are building them. The good old arms race, because we lack more important things to put our resources in. Correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I can see, the only country that isn’t trying, that is in fact more than capable of producing them, yet chooses not to, is Germany.

But lets think about the nuclear scenario here for a moment.

As Flying frog has already mentioned, the nuclear standoff between two opposing nations gets everybody thinking. The Mullahs would be crazy to launch nukes at Israel. Technologically they are no match at all. It would be suicide. And thinking in these lines... Israel has nukes and highly sophisticated tech to deliver the load, have their fair share of religious freaks - should we be frightened? Should we maybe attack them when we have no more Muslims to battle?

But that isn’t all. For one, firing nukes at Israel would with absolute certainty hit the same people that Iran would be fighting for, the Palestinians. I don’t have to tell you about the geographical „borders“ of Israel. You know how they are set. If not, one glance at a map should answer this. It’s not a big science to place a center on the map and draw a circle with an area of effect. And then, Jerusalem is home to important sites to the Muslim religion. Religious leaders that fanatic wouldn’t destroy the basis of their belief. Haven’t you seen in Iraq how they react to this? It should be very obvious in any case, if you try with a bit of empathy. Oh and the Muslim neighbors, what would they say if nuclear loads would be delivered so close to home? The Arab league would be thrilled, I bet.

Their goal is to destroy Israel as a state, not turn a holy land into a uninhabitable crater.

Quote:
I like how you try making the US out as some muslim suppressor, the patriot act is indeed worthy of question, but care telling me about anything else? Are there containment camps around or what?
I’m am a citizen, man. I am an American as well as a German, and I like my country. Well both actually. I may not throw myself into the dust whenever a flag rises, I never sing „America, America“ and don’t think that I as an American am gods gift to the world, because I don’t think that kind of patriotism, which I rather call nationalism, is very healthy. As a citizen who believes in democracy it is my duty (!) to point out shortcomings in my country. Many of my countrymen deem this blasphemy. Why? – I am sorry if my criticism may sound harsh sometimes, but this is no „I hate America“ crap. It is never my intention. I like the place. That is why I’m emotional about it. This personal note I just had to make, because I am aware of treading on hot grounds here.

There is something rotten in the US right now and we should open our eyes to it, because I in turn want to be able to look my kids into the eyes and tell them that they can be proud – but that’s not the point of this thread, so I’ll stop before a moderator is inclined to let his blood pressure rise.

Since you addressed the issue, and I’m glad you did, indeed there are containment camps run by the US where people are dragged to without trial on the basis of suspicion, tortured, defined at a whim and subjected to “tribunals” - how we like to call them. Guantanamo Bay is just one of them. We may call them prisons, but as long as the basic human rights and basic justice are revoked, they have the quality of containment camps. It is unworthy of a free society.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but guess what, the terrorist group that attacked us- as well as their allies, are muslim. Of course muslim's will be the first to question.
I have heard a lot of stories, first hand, second hand and there is probably a lot of crap being told, agreed. Prejudice against Muslims in the US is a fact though. Try googling a bit. You will be appalled. It is apparent in this forum as well. I won‘t point it out, since I can understand it to some degree and I don’t want to attack anyone here. I like the way this forum is moderated and it wouldn’t be allowed in any case, would not make a difference or serve any useful purpose either – so no, I won’t do it.

I just want to drop the suggestion of maybe reading one of the books that might be published on this topic in the near future, if a publisher can be found that doesn’t fear a public devoid of self criticism. Maybe that will change a few mindsets.

Fear, we are living in a country run by fear and we are loosing touch with the principles that make us great.
November 5th, 2004  
Chocobo_Blitzer
 
Iran doesn't have to blow half the world off, perhaps they could use a smaller nuclear weapon. City size.... same goes for smuggling a nuclear weapon into the US.

Two things about the latter, for one, how could one tell where the nuclear weapon came from? Might be hard to catch them red handed, better off stopping them at the facility. Also, the mexican border is very easy to cross..... california, nice, big population, and symbolic.

Quote:
Fear, we are living in a country run by fear and we are loosing touch with the principles that make us great.
ah! You watched "bowling for columbine" too, eh? Good for you!

Anyways, no, i'm not going to search around google or buy a book for propaganda. But I do find one thing interesting, if you could explain to me.

Quote:
where people are dragged to without trial on the basis of suspicion, tortured, defined at a whim and subjected to “tribunals
"people"? US citizens or combatants? Define "tortured"? I would think that would be on the news, or maybe those nasty republicans payed off the news channels and the heroic websites and books educated you.

Sorry, i'm being rude, but it's really hard for me to believe any of that. I've heard of stuff like depriving prisoners of sleep and such to get them to talk, but you act as if we have some hidden gestapo against muslims, taking them away by the hundreds at night....

I'm actually not a big fan of invading Iran, but if it comes to it, useing close air-strikes might be used to push Iran's nuclear plans back, and perhaps show them.... it's more trouble than it's worth.
November 5th, 2004  
Bratwurst
 
Quote:
Sorry, i'm being rude...
...to the point where I discuss no further.

Quote:
"people"? US citizens or combatants? Define "tortured"? I would think that would be on the news, or maybe those nasty republicans payed off the news channels and the heroic websites and books educated you.
If you try looking it up yourself you will find plenty of respectable sources.
November 5th, 2004  
Redneck
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratwurst
If you try looking it up yourself you will find plenty of respectable sources.
It is YOUR duty to post sources for any claims you make. Make it happen.
November 5th, 2004  
Doc.S
 
I think like this and I am a very simple man --- I will explain why I think as I do so here it comes. You dont put on a condom if you aint going to use it. That is what I believe about Iran and future nuclear weapons, because they ain`t Europe and they ain´t U.S and they are not even North Korea. This is about a different war, and their prophecies as a counterpart to the bible.

People are quite often demonasing christians today. As we all are some kind of Wacco people. But I dont see christian militias kidnaping arab citizens and beheading them in 2004, not in the west anyway. If they can do that I say they can drop the bomb to if they got one, without a doubt. We think very different and experiance the world very different through our different moral values and religious beliefs and that is a fact, nothing wicked or evil with it.

I believe this is the battle between Good and Evil, they look at me as Evil I look at them as Evil, nothing strange with that either. It is the natures will as I see it. You find it amongst Lions and Leopards in the jungel too. Can there be peace between us? Well yes if we avoid each other but there is no way to do that today, not in this world anyway. You find alot lesser breathing fundamentalists amongs the christians then you find amongs Muslims.

We have educations far beyond anything the countrys that has alot of fundamentalist can compete with. I am the Leopard they are the Lions and yes they will kill me if they get the chance when the time is right, I am for some only a competitor to their beliefe. So it is my intellect and knowledge and moral and human values and my way to look on womens rights and democrasy that makes me even a worse enemy then the Leopard. And even the less fundamentalists amongs the Muslims will be killed by their own when the time is right.

Read their counterpart of the bible and see for yourselfe. It is written by a very effective Terrorist. I am not pointing any fingers against anyone over here. This is common sence if you just look in to it, for some people Islam stands for Love, coexistence, comprehension, tolerance. For others Islam stands for submission nothing else sorry to say this, Iran has not always looked as it does today after the fundamentalists won the battle over there, thats for sure. I am just not ready to take any chances and become another Iran.


Cheers:
Doc.S

November 6th, 2004  
dragon
 

Topic: Iranian military officers went to China for training


China already started to train more than 200 Iranian military officers in Inner Mongolia in September for the period of three months in aim to for Iran to gain the capbability and experience of combating US army which is names as Blue Army in Chinese miliatary exercises.
November 6th, 2004  
dragon
 
China officially refuse to refer Iran to UN

Yesteray(Saturday), Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing said in Tehran that Beijing opposed US efforts to refer Iran to the United Nations (news - web sites) Security Council over its nuclear programme.

"It would only make the issue more complicated and difficult to work out," Li said during a news conference.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...115753/1/.html