Don't fault Israel for Palestinians' intransigence - Page 7




 
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Boots
 
December 14th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Theft? From who? Palestinians? Most of them left voluntarily. .
Again,....

Remember this happened in what Israel called it's war of Independence.
Quote:
INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW
(applies during wartime and to military occupations)

2. Parties to military conflict and their armed forces are required to allow civilians to return to their homes following the end of fighting no matter what their reasons for leaving (related International Laws, Israeli violations, and references)
How many times are you going to re present these tired old Zionist lies to be disproved over and over again?


Until you get some new lies I'm not even going to bother answering you.
December 16th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Again,....

Remember this happened in what Israel called it's war of Independence.How many times are you going to re present these tired old Zionist lies to be disproved over and over again?


Until you get some new lies I'm not even going to bother answering you.
There's a small overlooked part in your claim.
2. Parties to military conflict and their armed forces are required to allow civilians to return to their homes following the end of fighting no matter what their reasons for leaving
You are saying that the strugle is over? There is peace now? There's a peace deal with Jordan and Egypt but not with the Palestinians. The oslo accords are not a peace deal, they are an accord of splitting of responsibilities. So technically the PA and Israel are still at war until a peace deal is negotiated (UN counsel resolution). Or are you saying that the West Bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt and not the Palestinians?

Doesn't another UN resolution says : ... resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours...? How can they do that if they are still hostile to their neigbours?
December 16th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
There's a small overlooked part in your claim.
2. Parties to military conflict and their armed forces are required to allow civilians to return to their homes following the end of fighting no matter what their reasons for leaving
You are saying that the strugle is over? There is peace now? There's a peace deal with Jordan and Egypt but not with the Palestinians. The oslo accords are not a peace deal, they are an accord of splitting of responsibilities. So technically the PA and Israel are still at war until a peace deal is negotiated (UN counsel resolution). Or are you saying that the West Bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt and not the Palestinians?

Doesn't another UN resolution says : ... resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours...? How can they do that if they are still hostile to their neigbours?
Semantics and stupidity are surely your major skills, unfortunately for you the latter exceeds the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Virtual Library
The Israeli War of Independence

(1948 - 1949)
Just in case you are unaware it is now 2012 a fact recognised by all parties other than the Israelis. It is an inalienable human right protected by International Law that it cannot be made conditional, or overruled by the UN. Anyway,... since when did Israel ever abide by UN resolutions?
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Boots
December 16th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
There's a small overlooked part in your claim.
2. Parties to military conflict and their armed forces are required to allow civilians to return to their homes following the end of fighting no matter what their reasons for leaving
You are saying that the strugle is over? There is peace now? There's a peace deal with Jordan and Egypt but not with the Palestinians. The oslo accords are not a peace deal, they are an accord of splitting of responsibilities. So technically the PA and Israel are still at war until a peace deal is negotiated (UN counsel resolution). Or are you saying that the West Bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt and not the Palestinians?

Doesn't another UN resolution says : ... resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours...? How can they do that if they are still hostile to their neigbours?
So you are saying the Palestinians were a people then because it is impossible for something you said earlier didn't exist to reach a peace agreement isn't it and you accept that should they agree to live peaceably they can all return home?
December 18th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Semantics and stupidity are surely your major skills, unfortunately for you the latter exceeds the former.



Just in case you are unaware it is now 2012 a fact recognised by all parties other than the Israelis. It is an inalienable human right protected by International Law that it cannot be made conditional, or overruled by the UN. Anyway,... since when did Israel ever abide by UN resolutions?
Well Seno, in rule of law every word, even a dot or comma, is important.

Again you seem to not understand the difference between UN General resolutions, which are in fact political statements and are not binding, and UN Counsil resolutions which are binding and wich Israel abides by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
So you are saying the Palestinians were a people then because it is impossible for something you said earlier didn't exist to reach a peace agreement isn't it and you accept that should they agree to live peaceably they can all return home?
Can Israel be made responsible for refugees caused by the Arabs? The Arabs warned them to leave and the Arabs started the war, they attacked.

Did you ever do some research about the rights Palestinian refugees have in the refugee camps in Lebanon, West Bank, Gaza, Jordan and Syria (were they are getting bombed know without any human rights organisation complaing)? They live as prisoners. Do you know that Palestinian refugees living in the West Bank (PA controlled territory!) are not allowed to build outside the camps nor own property? So, a Palestinian refugee living in a refugee camp in Palestine (fully controled by the PA) who does not want to return to Israel is not allowed by the PA to settle in the West Bank.

Israel took in 600.000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries. Within 10 years all refugee camps were dismantled. How many Palestinians did the Arabs or even the Palestinians themselves took in? Or do you make a difference between a Jew who has to leave his house and a Palestinian?
December 18th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Again you seem to not understand the difference between UN General resolutions, which are in fact political statements and are not binding, and UN Counsil resolutions which are binding and wich Israel abides by.
That's the trouble with you being a pathological liar, you just can't help making it up as you go along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaretz 11 Oct 2002

Study: Israel leads in ignoring Security Council resolutions
Shlomo Shamir

Haaretz
October 11, 2002
NEW YORK - Israel holds the record for ignoring United Nations Security Council resolutions, according to a study by San Francisco University political science professor Stephen Zunes.
I rarely bother checking what you say as I know that it's all just deliberate lies and misrepresentations,.... here we can see why.
December 19th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Can Israel be made responsible for refugees caused by the Arabs? The Arabs warned them to leave and the Arabs started the war, they attacked.
Yes they can because Israel is occupying territory that these "Arabs" lived on, this is perhaps why they are referred to as the "Occupied territories", it is why the Germans were held responsible for the safety and security of the population in the parts of Europe they controlled and then when they were defeated the Allied were made responsible for the same people when they occupied Europe.

Quote:
Did you ever do some research about the rights Palestinian refugees have in the refugee camps in Lebanon, West Bank, Gaza, Jordan and Syria (were they are getting bombed know without any human rights organisation complaing)? They live as prisoners. Do you know that Palestinian refugees living in the West Bank (PA controlled territory!) are not allowed to build outside the camps nor own property? So, a Palestinian refugee living in a refugee camp in Palestine (fully controled by the PA) who does not want to return to Israel is not allowed by the PA to settle in the West Bank.
Are you related to Del Boy?
You argument twists and turns until I doubt even you know what you are saying just like he does.

Here is a couple of thoughts for ya though:
1) The fact that you call the Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria refugees indicates that even you know they are not Syrian, Lebanese or Jordanian which would indicate that you know they are not from there (you cant be a refugee in a land you are a citizen of) which would indicate that these people come from somewhere else perhaps a piece of dirt now known as Israel?
So the fact that you call these people refugees indicates that you already know your argument is not a historical one but rather one of justifying the actions of Israel and that says a lot about your motives.

2) Your theory that the PA controls ANY areas is simply a nonsense as we all know that the over all control of the area is the occupying force, if tomorrow Israel decided it wanted to build 10000 more homes it would simply evict anyone on the land it wants and start building so please stop thinking everyone is as gullible as you would like to think they are.


Quote:
Israel took in 600.000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries. Within 10 years all refugee camps were dismantled. How many Palestinians did the Arabs or even the Palestinians themselves took in? Or do you make a difference between a Jew who has to leave his house and a Palestinian?
And they housed them all on land that did not belong to them, seems in your view two wrongs do make a right or is it a case of the Palestinians that don't exist but apparently control parts of the west bank and who are in your words refugees however never lived in the area that they are refugees from were simply ethnically cleansed from their homes to make way for these 600,000 Jews from other countries?

You wonder why no one takes your arguments seriously, between you and Del Boy it is like being taught history by Mr Bean.
December 20th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
That's the trouble with you being a pathological liar, you just can't help making it up as you go along.
Am I ?

The General Assembly
"The General Assembly is not a world government - its resolutions are not legally binding upon Member States. "
Are all Security Council resolutions binding on all Member States?
"According to Article 25 of the United Nations Charter, all members of the United Nations “agree to carry out and accept the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter”. How this issue has been addressed in the Council can be found in the Repertoire (see Functions and Powers, under Article 25)."
Who's the liar here?

Quote:
I rarely bother checking what you say as I know that it's all just deliberate lies and misrepresentations,.... here we can see why.
Then read the article.
"Israel leads the list. Since 1968, Israel has violated 32 resolutions that included condemnation or criticism of the governments' policies and actions."
not decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yes they can because Israel is occupying territory that these "Arabs" lived on, this is perhaps why they are referred to as the "Occupied territories", it is why the Germans were held responsible for the safety and security of the population in the parts of Europe they controlled and then when they were defeated the Allied were made responsible for the same people when they occupied Europe.
So you are comparing the allies with the Israelis and the Germans with the Arabs. That's the way it is.
"United Nations General Resolution 194 recommended that refugees be allowed to return to their homeland if they met two important conditions:
1. That they be willing to live in peace with their neighbors
2. That the return takes place “at the earliest practicable date”
The resolution also recommended that for those who did not wish to return, “Compensation should be paid for the property … and for loss of or damage to property” by the “governments or authorities responsible.”
Although Arab leaders point to Resolution 194 as proof that Arab refugees have a right to return or be compensated, it is important to note that the Arab States: Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen voted against Resolution 194.
Quote:
Are you related to Del Boy?
You argument twists and turns until I doubt even you know what you are saying just like he does.

Here is a couple of thoughts for ya though:
1) The fact that you call the Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria refugees indicates that even you know they are not Syrian, Lebanese or Jordanian which would indicate that you know they are not from there (you cant be a refugee in a land you are a citizen of) which would indicate that these people come from somewhere else perhaps a piece of dirt now known as Israel?
So the fact that you call these people refugees indicates that you already know your argument is not a historical one but rather one of justifying the actions of Israel and that says a lot about your motives.
I let Shoher answer thi:
"a refugee is someone forced to flee, not his third-generation descendant, no more than inner-city blacks are ex-slaves. Edward Said’s logic taken to its extreme would give the right of return to Palestine to the descendants of the Jews who fled in 70 and 135 C.E. More than half a century has passed since 1948. Palestinians born elsewhere are not refugees from Israel. Unlike the right to property, citizenship is personal and not inheritable."
Quote:
2) Your theory that the PA controls ANY areas is simply a nonsense as we all know that the over all control of the area is the occupying force, if tomorrow Israel decided it wanted to build 10000 more homes it would simply evict anyone on the land it wants and start building so please stop thinking everyone is as gullible as you would like to think they are.

Oslo accords Article XI para 2a:
"Land in populated areas (Areas A and B), including government and Al Waqf land, will come under the jurisdiction of the Council during the first phase of redeployment."
Annex I article I - 4:
"After the inauguration of the Palestinian Council, the unity and integrity of the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip shall be maintained and respected. All Palestinian people residing in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip will be accountable to the Palestinian Council only, unless otherwise provided in this Agreement."
many more articles prove that the Palestinians control allmost their entire population and more.

Quote:
And they housed them all on land that did not belong to them, seems in your view two wrongs do make a right or is it a case of the Palestinians that don't exist but apparently control parts of the west bank and who are in your words refugees however never lived in the area that they are refugees from were simply ethnically cleansed from their homes to make way for these 600,000 Jews from other countries?
First, Israel is a souvereign state. They can take in as many Jews or other people as they want.
Second : "an ordinance was passed creating a Custodian of Abandoned Property “to prevent unlawful occupation of empty houses and business premises, to administer ownerless property, and also to secure tilling of deserted fields, and save the crops. . . ." (Schechtman, p. 268)
Third : you're talking nonsense.

Quote:
You wonder why no one takes your arguments seriously, between you and Del Boy it is like being taught history by Mr Bean.
Words, words, words.
December 20th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Am I ?
Yes, you are. Read your own previous post which I was answering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Again you seem to not understand the difference between UN General resolutions, which are in fact political statements and are not binding, and UN Counsil resolutions which are binding and wich Israel abides by.
December 20th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I let Shoher answer thi:
"a refugee is someone forced to flee, not his third-generation descendant, no more than inner-city blacks are ex-slaves. Edward Said’s logic taken to its extreme would give the right of return to Palestine to the descendants of the Jews who fled in 70 and 135 C.E. More than half a century has passed since 1948. Palestinians born elsewhere are not refugees from Israel. Unlike the right to property, citizenship is personal and not inheritable."

And I will let international law determine what a refugee is...

Under international law, refugees are individuals who:
  • are outside their country of nationality or habitual residence;
  • have a well-founded fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion; and
  • are unable or unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country, or to return there, for fear of persecution.
Palestinian refugees from 1948 and their descendants do not come under the 1951 UN Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, but under the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, which created its own criteria for refugee classification. The great majority of Palestinian refugees have kept the refugee status for generations, under a special decree of the UN.
Palestine refugees



Who are Palestine refugees?


Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are people whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict.
UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. The descendants of the original Palestine refugees are also eligible for registration. When the Agency started working in 1950, it was responding to the needs of about 750,000 Palestine refugees. Today, 5 million Palestine refugees are eligible for UNRWA services.
Where do Palestine refugees live?

One-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.4 million, live in 58 recognised refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
A camp, according to UNRWA's working definition, is a plot of land placed at the disposal of UNRWA by the host government to accommodate Palestine refugees and to set up facilities to cater to their needs. Areas not designated as such are not considered camps. However, UNRWA also maintains schools, health centres and distribution centres in areas outside camps where Palestine refugees are concentrated, such as Yarmouk near Damascus, in Syria.
The plots of land on which camps were set up are either state land or, in most cases, land leased by the host government from local landowners. This means that the refugees in camps do not "own" the land on which their shelters were built, but have the right to "use" the land for a residence.
Socio-economic conditions in the camps are generally poor, with high population density, cramped living conditions and inadequate basic infrastructure such as roads and sewers.
UNRWA’s responsibility in camps

UNRWA's responsibility in the camps is limited to providing services and administering its installations. The Agency does not own, administer or police the camps as this is the responsibility of the host authorities.
UNRWA has a camp services office in each camp, which the residents visit to update their records or to raise issues relating to Agency services with the camp services officer (CSO). The CSO, in turn, refers refugee concerns and petitions to the UNRWA administration in the area in which the camp is located.
1967 war

Ten camps were established in the aftermath of the June 1967 war and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, to accommodate a new wave of displaced persons, both refugees and non-refugees.
Cities and towns

The other two-thirds of the registered refugees live in and around the cities and towns of the host countries, and in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, often in the environs of official camps. While most of UNRWA's installations such as schools and health centres are located in refugee camps, a number are outside camps and all of the Agency's services are available to both camp and non-camp residents.

http://www.unrwa.org/index.php

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I am not sure how much you are being paid to be a shill but I have to say they are not getting their moneys worth from you as I think you have turned more people against Israel through piss poor arguments, dodgy facts and historical interpretation that you have managed to win over to your cause.