Domestic Spying without a Court Order by the FBI

[Chief Bones]

In the middle of a phone conversation and you say the word bomb and it starts recording. No phsyical wiretap. Just I dont see how it could be done. Cell phones are a completetly diffrent beast though,

THAT IS NOT TRUE!

With today's technology, all calls can be recorded (wire AND wireless).

Where the problem comes in is the encryption that is being used in some of the most sophisticated phones. Without the most modern decryption devices in the world, decryption is not impossible - just extremely hard.

The "word" recognition software is so finely tuned that all it takes is ONE word to activate the recording devices.

 

[bulldogg]

In the middle of a phone conversation and you say the word bomb and it starts recording. No phsyical wiretap. Just I dont see how it could be done. Cell phones are a completetly diffrent beast though,

Most phone calls are processed through computers digitally rather than analogue and if it is beemed by satelite all the easier to snatch it out of the ether my friend. Technology is simply amazing... and scary as hell.

Bones, something I have been pondering that bothers me with the whole "I'm innocent so it doesn't affect me" attitude is this, and I'd like your thoughts as we disagree on this issue,... how do you know who you are talking to on the internet, how do you know what your friends are up to, or their friends? Not that I am saying everyone is a spy or a terrorist but it has happened whereby innocent people have been detained owing to the nature of their friendships with certain people or their employers.

Its called guilt by association and the results of it can be horrific in these days of Camp Delta and drive-thru wiretaps. We have talked and we become friends online and we discuss things but how do you know who I am or what I am up to? Perhaps I am a terrorist and I come to the attention of the authorities well, your name is now going to be watched and your phone calls listened to owing to your communication with me.

I'll dig up the stories if I can re-find them but I have read of at least two people who have been released after two years from Delta and they were completely innocent. And with no charges being filed, no contact with attorneys, nothing at all being said to anyone about who these people even are the effects on their lives have been devestating. One man from Germany was abducted by US forces and then after two years dumped on a road in Albania. He returns home to a wife and kids who had no idea what had happened and complete denial from the US. Imagine it. His only "crime" was a friendly association with someone in a sleeper cell he knew nothing about.

The end results of this trend are most disturbing. Do we spy on everyone as in the days of the red scares? I daresay no one wants that. But when there is no judicial oversight, because judges not lawyers or politicians are the proper authority when it comes to adjudicating legality, the people have no defense. Innocence is lost and the only way to protect one's self is by divesting of society and trusting no one. That is an essential break down in any society as trust is a crucial bond necessary in any group of people.

 

[gladius]

You guys are getting paraniod.

We had stuff like this during WWII, to ensure the nations safety. Were still here and we still have our democracy. There are checks and balances to make sure this thing doesn't get out of hand.

If something happens to you in the US and you are a citizen, at least you have a recourse of action you can take such as getting a lawyer and chalenging the government whether or not they violated your constitutional rights, things you don't have in other countries, like say... China.

 

[Rabs]

Oh it was much much worse in WW2.

We started interning people, imagine if Bush tried that today.

 

[Wing Nut]

In the middle of a phone conversation and you say the word bomb and it starts recording. No phsyical wiretap. Just I dont see how it could be done. Cell phones are a completetly diffrent beast though,

It was just something I had heard about.

I have had my phone tapped in the UK before though back in the late 90's. But that was just like someone picking up an extention of my phone as I answered or made a call.

I guess word sensors aren't as a imagined.

Wing Nut

 

[Bullpup_two]

well, today I learned that "ice" means "kill" in slung
so, whenever you say the word "ice" they starts wire-tapping?
and what about other languages? if people were talking in Chinese on the phone and said highjack in chinese,are they gonna start wiretapping?
just asking,,,

 

[bulldogg]

You guys are getting paraniod.

We had stuff like this during WWII, to ensure the nations safety. Were still here and we still have our democracy. There are checks and balances to make sure this thing doesn't get out of hand.

If something happens to you in the US and you are a citizen, at least you have a recourse of action you can take such as getting a lawyer and chalenging the government whether or not they violated your constitutional rights, things you don't have in other countries, like say... China.

The FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year, according to government sources, a hundredfold increase over historic norms. The letters -- one of which can be used to sweep up the records of many people -- are extending the bureau's reach as never before into the telephone calls, correspondence and financial lives of ordinary Americans.

Issued by FBI field supervisors, national security letters do not need the imprimatur of a prosecutor, grand jury or judge. They receive no review after the fact by the Justice Department or Congress. The executive branch maintains only statistics, which are incomplete and confined to classified reports. The Bush administration defeated legislation and a lawsuit to require a public accounting, and has offered no example in which the use of a national security letter helped disrupt a terrorist plot.

30,000 letters authorising surveilance with no judicial oversight and NOTHING to show for it and fighting all legislation to try and provide accountability is strenously defeated and you say I am paranoid?

Why is worrying about the erosion of personal liberties guaranteed me by the constitution paranoid whilest worrying about the intentions of a nuclear capable Iran is not? With both I can point to trends and evidence supporting the conclusions of my deductions. With both there is in deed a perceived threat to the world as we know it. There is more than a morsel of truth in movies such as Enemy of the State and The Manchurian Candidate. Oftentimes truth is stranger than fiction and though I don't believe that there are conspiracies behind every shoe that drops I do believe that it is a fact that the rich and powerful around the globe in every country have tried and will continue to try to wrest all manner of control away from the citizens and deposit it in the hands of the powerful elite.

Jefferson very clearly and accurately stated that where the government fears the people there is liberty and where the people fear the government there is tyranny. Look at the freedoms and liberties as guaranteed in the constitution and the bill of rights and compare them to what you are allowed to have today by a government that continually acts and asserts that it is above the law and above the constitution. Yes, times have changed and perhaps we do need to adapt BUT there is a mechanism in place for handling this. You cannot pass ANY law that is in violation of the constitution. If you need to adapt you must alter the constitution through amendment. The founding fathers were visionary enough to allow for the the unknown of the future. The failure of the federal government to abide by these restrictions on its power in my reasoning goes back to Lincoln and his flaunting of the powers of the executive above and beyond and in clear defiance of the checks placed on the office by the highest law in the land, something that 5.56 alluded to elsewhere.

I am of the firm opinion the government of the United States is so far removed from the intentions of the founding fathers and in such clear defiance of its own establishing principles that nothing short of a full on revolution will correct the situation. The majority of the population is too well off to give a rats arse and the oligarchs of money who fund the whole charade have gladly sliced away all rights from the people who have happily bent over and taken it. The "sheeple" as some of you call them are living a dream wrapped in a myth so far removed from reality that nothing short of a blood letting will wake them.

 

[Chief Bones]

bulldogg
I don't know who's on the other end of an internet conversation. My paranoia isn't the "someone's out to get me" type, mine is the creepy feeling that I get when my back is to a door, open window or a room. As long as I have eyes to see and a brain to reason with I ALWAYS believe I can face almost ANY problem that comes along.

My brain and it's reasoning powers were what took me through the 60s with all of the danger associated with that period, and carried me past the fracas of Granada. When Bush I decided to kick Saddam's butt the first time, I was aboard a Reserve Ship training Reservists and managed to escaped having to go into the Med.

Thirty years spanning Vietnam, Granada and drug interdiction operations were enough for me without turning over every rock in search of enemies.

If (and when) enemies show up in my front yard, I will grab the shotgun sitting behind my front door and blow away as many of them as I can.

Until then, I will hope that our leaders are competent enough to at least give us enough warning of impending enemy troop invasion that I and other veterans can mobilise quickly enough to give them a run for their money.

As far as guilt by association, I have never in any of my postings been in favor of the overthrow of the United States government nor have I stood by when someone else made that statement (this includes you). When you said "nothing short of a full on revolution will correct the situation", it hints strongly (right or wrong) that you don't believe that our representative republic is worth allowing the clock pendulum to swing back where it belongs. This "violation" of rights was and is a knee jerk response to the loss of the Twin Towers and over 3,000 lives on 9/11. Just like the post World II years, the liberties that were stepped on after the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor were slowly re-instituted.

America has always been so. Even the Civil War had its "liberty" detractors - Lincoln for one.

WE SURVIVED THE CIVIL WAR AND WE CAN SURVIVE THIS MESS.

 

[bulldogg]

Fair enough and reasonable Chief. I am not promoting a revolution, I am saying the system is too broke to ever be fixed and most don't even see a problem. Much like the citizens of Rome proper who were too fat and happy to notice their empire crumbling around them. History has proven that happy citizens will take whatever tripe comes down the pipe as long as it doesn't upset their own personal world. I think most are too deluded to even realise how little rights they have anymore and just how powerless they are. The system is corrupt and broken to the point where the people do NOT have the ability to change anything. That was the intent of the rant.

 

[Rabs]

I am not promoting a revolution, I am saying the system is too broke to ever be fixed and most don't even see a problem

With all do respect, I completely disagree, it was broke much more than this during/post WWII and during Mcarthirism than it is now, and it all went back into place then just as it will now. As cheif said things will settle back down or the "pendulem will swing the other way." Any nation can recover I mean look at Iraq now compared to 4 years ago or Russia compared to 15 years ago, or China to 15 years ago.

 

[bulldogg]

Fair enough bruv and no disrespect taken nor intended. Its been broke a long time before 9/11 or even McCarthyism... this goes back to at least the Civil War. I just don't share your optimism but I do take heart in the fact that you do have an optimistic view of the situation. It just sends shivers down my spine to think of what I considered my home and bastion of liberty and freedom in a world afloat in shite is employing the methods and reasoning of a Stalinist police state even if not in all its complete and resplendant horror.

Spying on citizens and suspensions of constitutionally guaranteed rights are but a symptom of a deeper cancer. A cancer that is fed by a system to the point where I honestly and truly believe it cannot be eradicated. One small node of this cancer is the system of personal income tax. It was enacted by Lincoln WITHOUT congressional approval and ratification as called for in the constitution in regards to all things relating to finance and the federal government. It flies in complete and flagrant disregard to the principle of the revolution. No taxation without representation. Income tax and the IRS are without question an unconstitutional and as such illegal by product of a president overstepping his bounds. But just try and not pay this illegal tax and what happens? Even further to the point, how would you remove it? Its too entrenched and the list goes on and on. We feed our children a complete package of manure, myth and lies and only a few ever take the blinders off long enough to see the real landscape. In a common law system it is imperitive to fight against ANY infringment because it establishes a precedent.

http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/incomtax.htm

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0397/tax_01.htm

 

[Whispering Death]

Eh, you can see my post as the absolute first response to this thread for evidence as my general reaction to such things.

However, if it's just against people who are in contact with a group we are at war with then that is tantamount to treason and therefore well within the rhelms of secret spying in times of war. War isn't a police action and those that have given sufficient and legitimate reason to be collaberating with the enemy have no reason to expect the fairness of law to be applied to them in such times.

 

[jrotcwmckinnon]

I would only approve if the government could produce evidence that an act of terrorism was about to be committed.:drill:

 

[Missileer]

I would only approve if the government could produce evidence that an act of terrorism was about to be committed.:drill:

In the same instant that the info is discovered, a nuke may be triggered in Manhatten. That may sound like "bunker willie" syndrome, but we have to track people for a little while before the liberal judges will issue a search warrant.

 

[Marinerhodes]

If you read more carefully, I'm talking about websites not a physical location.

In regards to the comment previous to this, isn't that website available to ALL the world to see? It is not as if anyone is hacking passwords to these websites (that I know of).

To the rest of those that dislike or cry foul that civil liberties and innate rights are abused or misused:

You can not have it both ways at the same time. Extreme security and complete freedom.

With complete freedoms comes the openings that can be used to terrorize us/you/them.

With extreme security you have a loss of some freedoms but are able to sleep at night knowing that there is not going to be another huge report about another tragedy on the scale (or larger) than 9/11.

I am certain the US government is trying to find a happy medium. As stated before it is just a matter of time, trial and error, until it comes about.

One thing to consider is this please: If you had never heard of this, if you had/have never been affected by this, would it matter one whit to you? I think the inly people that have anything to be worried about are the ones that plan to do something illegal or terroristic in nature.

On the statement(s) about the word recog program: Yes, it is available and used.

Are they going to just come to your home and snatch you up for one conversation? Not likely.

Will they do a quick background check to find out about you? Probably.

Will you ever know they did a background check? Not likely. (Considering if you have ever applied for any type of high end/sensitive job you have likely had a relatively thorough background check anyway.)

Will this all dissipate and we have an whole nother gripe, complaint, concern or comment in another few weeks or so? Most definitely.

So I say to you my fellow forum members, take a step back, get a breath of fresh air and relax.

This too shall pass.

Don't ask me who said it 'cause I dunno.

 

[yingying]

Bulldogg wrote

BTW that blog is blocked in mainland China so I can't read it.

i think u are wrong .

now i can give you fact :::

http://blog.sina.com.cn/main/

please link any html in the website..

and my blog is this:::::

http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1222040702


there is only one passage in my blog ,it was writen both in english and chinese.

it is a poem ,about love .wish you like it .

 

[bulldogg]

Pay attention, I said that Phoenix's blog is blocked in China, which it is. I did not say your blog or that all blogs are blocked in China. The fact is that without the use of a proxy server the specific blog I referred to is indeed blocked in China.

 

[ironhorseredleg]

This is a cut/paste from The Washtingon Post.

WD, don't you know that all US media is owned, operated, and totally controlled by left-wingers. Rush, et. al., are simply foils created by left-wing hoodoos to give their favorite conservative-bashers something to rant about. Come on, where have you been for the past 2 decades????


P.S. This post written with tongue pressed firmly into left cheek

 

[ironhorseredleg]

Okay, Now I have finally caught up with all of the posts.

. . .

Another think I have found out thanks to living and having friends in various countries that things like the news... as much as we like to think is pure and true get's horribly altered once it changes from one country to another. I hear news from US and UK friends about China for example which I know not to be true.. (at least not to the degree stated in the foriegn countries). On the flip side, I hear news about England and the US here and when I check with friends and family in those places it is generally once again not as it was laid out in the other country.

Becuase of this, I find it hard to really know who or what to believe any more.. I have found both news in china about western countries (to use china as an example) to be wrong. and I have found news in the west abotu china that is wrong. So I generally try to find the middle ground as some sort of guestimation as to the real situation and then leave it at that.
. . .
Wing Nut

WN, we have British, Deutch, and Espanol news and culture channels available on our US cable service (one of thousands of cable services for those of you who don't live here and know that--kind of like the German Autobahn is the only major highway in Germany to folks who've never been there, but I digress) and some evenings I'll spend some time watching/deciphering news reports from the various agencies about the same occurence. Totally different story depending upon which country the broadcast originates from.

Since my time in West Germany (dating myself here), I've always viewed news with a healthy amount of skeptism whether it's TV, radio, print, or electronic. Kind of taking an average from a number of sources seems best, though sometimes a number of different sources turn out to be owned by the company. ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!

 

[ironhorseredleg]

. . .

To the rest of those that dislike or cry foul that civil liberties and innate rights are abused or misused:

You can not have it both ways at the same time. Extreme security and complete freedom.

With complete freedoms comes the openings that can be used to terrorize us/you/them.

With extreme security you have a loss of some freedoms but are able to sleep at night knowing that there is not going to be another huge report about another tragedy on the scale (or larger) than 9/11.

I am certain the US government is trying to find a happy medium. As stated before it is just a matter of time, trial and error, until it comes about.
. . .

This too shall pass.

Don't ask me who said it 'cause I dunno.

When I watched the 2nd plane smash into the WTC via live newsday coverage on TV, I had this fleeting panic thought about Beruit in the 70's and whether this would be the attack that moved our great free society down the path toward that. My thinking involved once beautiful streets in ruin, with chunks of fallen buildings making vehicle traffic impossible.

However, in the weeks and months since then, I've come to feel much more like the physical destruction of the WTC and damage to the Pentagon were simply the visible entry wounds, and that the real damage was the internal chaos, suspicion, and self-doubt brought on by such an attack during the lengthy transition period between administrations caused by the hanging chads and massive change of focus from Clinton to W. That's the damage I fear that will ultimately lead US to self-destruction--the fuse that's inexhoribly burning toward that Orwellian powder-keg-police-state society.


PPS>> I didn't realize I was multiple-posting. Been gone awhile and was Quick Replying/Quoting some entries. Didn't think they'd end up back-to-back-to-back at the end. DOH!